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Coalition 2

Building reusable hooks and components can be tricky. Just like any other kind of abstraction, you can easily find yourself captive to its maintenance. Whether it's the dreaded "apropcalypse" of a component with tons of props, or a custom hook with too many options, it's not fun for maintainers or users alike. Inevitably, the incidentally-abstracted "reusable" React hooks and components will ultimately slow you down or be abandoned for duplication. It doesn't have to be like this.

By the end of this workshop, you'll have a deep understanding of how component libraries work and how to implement your own components and hooks that are powerful, flexible, and easy to use. This will demystify the patterns that power the libraries you use every day and will help you use them more effectively. Beyond that, you'll learn important patterns that will help you get your codebase ready for React Server Components through the proper use of composition as well as ways to deal with real-world scenarios you bump into every day in React applications. All taught by one of the top React instructors in the world (Kent even created and popularized some of the patterns you'll learn).

We look forward to you joining and increasing your own skills as a React developer.

Kent C. Dodds

Advanced React Patterns **OPTIONAL WORKSHOP REQUIRES A SEPARATE TICKET**

Coalition 3

Building a custom storefront with Shopify allows you to build unique and stand-out shopping experiences. It lets you integrate immersive content with a great checkout experience. But for this to work, you must empower content teams with excellent authoring experiences.

In this comprehensive 6-hour workshop, Simeon and Knut will take you through setting up a Shopify-powered Remix/Hydrogen storefront and integrate content from Sanity – the only CMS to be Shopify Plus Certified. You will learn how to set up a Hydrogen project connected to Shopify, enable embedding live product data inside of content presentations, customize content authoring experiences, and more.

Transform your web development skills into creating more engaging, efficient, and unique e-commerce sites.

Simeon Griggs

Knut Melvær

How to Build Epic Commerce Experiences **OPTIONAL WORKSHOP REQUIRES A SEPARATE TICKET**

Prospector Theater

You're welcome to attend these talks as we record our backup speakers. They'll appreciate your presence and applause!

Bonus speaker recordings start

How we scaled Shop on the Web using Remix while integrating AI along the way - I'll cover the challenges we faced integrating with an existing native app while introducing the ultimate shopping assistant powered by AI.

Barry McGee

Building shop.app at scale with Remix and AI

What makes a great developer tool? What's the key to a successful open-source project in 2024?

In this talk, we'll share a playbook for launching developer-first products and scaling open-source projects to millions of developers.

Zeno Rocha

The Next Generation of Developer-First Products

Local-first is a buzzword in 2024, but what does it even mean? Let's walk through it together as I show you how I used local-first techniques to make my personal recipe app work completely offline while still syncing to the cloud.

We'll discuss some principles and tools used to build local-first apps, what apps might benefit from local first, and how to mix in progressive enhancement and SEO. Hopefully by the end you'll get a taste why local-first is a compelling app paradigm.

Alex Anderson

The Recipe for Local-First

☄️ Registration & Breakfast

Welcome to Epic Web Conf! Let's get things rolling!

Madison Kanna

Mark Techson

Welcome 👋

The web is a special platform. It's different from anything else you can build on as a result of its openness and freedom from a central authority. It's about collaboration and cooperation. As a result, there's a degree of freedom we have on the web despite its weaknesses.

In this talk, I want to explain why you should double-down your investment in web technologies in your own career and company offerings. If you do, we can keep the web epic for many years to come.

What Makes the Web Epic

The web platform has evolved massively in the past few years. In this talk, learn how to take advantage of new and existing features in your app to lessen your script payload and overall state management. Learn about upcoming features like view transitions, CSS-only scroll-driven animations, native stateful popovers and anchor positioning, as well as new primitives like nesting. Una will highlight practical UI examples and show how leveraging the power of modern JS, CSS, and HTML can reduce developer overhead while making your components more flexible.

Una Kravets

Less Cruft, More Power: Leverage the Power of the Web Platform

Compounding work-related stress in my 20’s left me with a heart condition and at a crossroads: Leave the tech industry to find less stressful work, or continue “making sacrifices” to build a successful career. It seemed unfair, but more than that, it seemed illogical. Olympians are undeniably the best athletes in the world, and their extraordinary performance depends just as much on their recovery as their training.

So why is it that everyone I knew in tech was burnt out, overwhelmed, and running on 5 hours of sleep while trying to ship the next Big Thing? And why were we all applauding it? This was counterintuitive, and I spent the next 2.5 years at G2i digging into how prioritizing the health of the mind and body can make us better developers — and a lot happier while we’re at it.

Michelle Bakels

Tech Broke My Heart

Break

Exploring the transformative impact of Tailwind CSS as a design and prototyping tool, and its role in bridging the gap between designers and developers.

Simon Vrachliotis

Unleashing Designers with Tailwind CSS

Every click is an interaction, but not every interaction is a click. More details coming soon.

Sandrina Pereira

Accessible interactions in JavaScript apps

A lightning talk on the powerful punch that can be stashed into a custom property, a couple of tricks, and a wham bam speed round of use cases for the belt.

Adam Argyle

Lightning in a bottle with CSS custom properties

The Recipe for Local-First 

Lunch

Andrew DevTools

Justin DevTools

Michael Chan

DevTools.fm Live Recording

Sessions start again

As applications grow, API endpoints can become bloated and sometimes frail. Performance drops. User experience degrades. Learn how you may be able to improve performance while gaining higher reliability. We're going to cover how instrumenting APIs with events enables more reliable, asynchronous applications.

Dan Farrelly

Improve performance and reliability of your API with events and background functions

Ryan Florence

Surprise!

SQLite is a tremendously powerful production database. This talk will go into the specifics as to why.

Glauber Costa

Seriously SQLite

Mocking HTTP is great. Today, let's mock something else.

Artem Zakharchenko

Mocking WebSockets with MSW

Knowing how to build a web app is an incredible super power. But if you want strangers to actually use it, building a working product isn't enough -- it's gotta look good too. Together, we go on a developer's journey of self teaching design principles and best practices and how to learn just enough to build dangerously good looking products.

Saron Yitbarek

Not A Designer

What does component-driven development mean in an age of full-stack components? How can we capture critical testing data as we develop components, flows, and applications. In this talk we'll breakdown what Storybook gets right and how Epic Stack can create a better snapshot-driven DX.

Snapshot-driven Development: Capture Visual Tests in Flow

I don’t want AI to take my job or invade my privacy. Let’s learn how GPTs work, what’s right, what’s wrong, what’s ethical, what’s biased, what’s local and what’s in the cloud. Can we use AI to increase joy and reduce toil?

Scott Hanselman

AI - “iron man or ultron”

Your app is only as fast as its slowest query.

In this session, we'll explore the vital role database tuning plays in your app's user experience. You’ll gain a pragmatic understanding of database indexing and hear real stories from using these tips in the wild. Get ready to level-up your database skills. When we’re done, you’ll be equipped to make your app performance epic.

Tyler Benfield

Epic App Performance Starts with the Database

Whether you're new to Remix or an experienced user, this talk will provide fresh insights and practical knowledge to leverage the full potential of Remix in building full stack web applications.


Lina Mahrouch

Things You Probably Didn't Know About Remix

Different patterns for creating, reading, updating, and deleting data in the most common web applications

Jacob Paris

High Performance CRUD Apps

Thanks for coming to Epic Web Conf! We'll see you next year!

Farewell 🫶

Dinner Break

Party 🎉

[00:00] Hey, what is up, Adam? I am super excited that you're coming to Epic Web Conf. I'd love for the attendees to get to know you a little bit. So why don't you introduce yourself to us? I can do that. My name is Adam Argyle. I work at Chrome. I'm in the DevRel team, and I focus on CSS and UI, making sure that you all have the elements that you need,

[00:19] the styles that you need to get and make beautiful interfaces for your users. We want things to be seamless. We want things to be smooth. We want things to be easy for you. We want you to feel like the platform gives you the stuff that you need to be effective and feel good about what you do. I'm really happy to do that. I'm also on the CSS working group.

[00:37] I'm a skateboarder, punk, nerd. I'm just artsy, as I'll get out, love crafting, and just love the web. So I'm super happy to be speaking at Epic Web. Dude, that's awesome. I love all of those things that you said. You didn't mention the OneWheel, but that's

[00:56] part of the skater stuff, too, I guess. Definitely. That thing has been so amazing since COVID. So many miles logged, so many trails shredded, a couple of biffs, and it's all good. I love it. Fantastic. Yeah, also super grateful to you and everything

[01:15] that you're doing with the Chrome team, getting the web platform up to snuff, especially around the elements that we need and CSS stuff as well. I know that there's been a lot of excitement about the stuff coming to the web platform and stuff. And your coworker, your manager, Yuna,

[01:35] is going to be talking about that a little bit as well. Why don't you give us a quick idea, a rundown, of what you have planned for your talk at Epic Web Conf? Yes. The web of web, well, I don't know. It just could be very easily turned into just a bunch of wah-wahs.

[01:54] So I'm going to be talking about custom properties, which might not be too surprising to a lot of people. It's a five-minute lightning talk, and I'm going to show you the power of what these custom properties can contain and how to type them, and then just show you, based on these couple of features that they have, which are pretty loose features, a bunch of amazing things that they can pack in a little bit of a punch.

[02:14] So it's going to be like a little grain of spice that you're like, oh, surely that basil leaf won't change this dish, and oh, yeah, that basil leaf is definitely going to dominate. And so, yeah, it should be enlightening and quick. Ooh, enlightening. And we'll all be hoping that we're the one with the basil leaf in our bowl of soup.

[02:38] I got it. I got the basil leaf. I know my kids are excited when they are the ones that get the basil leaf. But I think that is awesome and exciting. Custom properties have been around for a couple of years, and I think that people still are just figuring out what we can do with those. So I think that giving people some exposure

[02:58] to what you've been able to do with custom properties will be pretty awesome. So also, Adam, we do got a second more. What are some of the things that you're most excited about with the stuff that you've been working on recently in Chrome and CSS? I got to love, I'll just shout out,

[03:20] there's a few things to shout out. Color has been awesome. The relative color syntax is like this dreamy moment where you've always wanted to create a variant of a color. You're like, I just need a transparent version. I just need a slightly altered color for a hover effect. I didn't get it from the designer. And that gets applied for you. Really cool. View transitions, I just see them now.

[03:39] I'll see an interaction that a designer makes, and I'm like, oh, it's a view transition. I could totally automate that. And I love the view transitions. You're just like, here's state one, here's state two. They can be completely different DOMs. And the browser's like, oh, I'll find the shared elements and just morph them beautifully between. And it's so cool.

[03:58] And then the last one is scroll-driven animations. I'm just seeing those everywhere now too. Just had an article go out on it. They're all over my website. Just some cool interaction animation and color features have hit the browsers. It's just so cool. That is awesome. I love it all. I guess you'd say those are safe things for people

[04:17] to come and talk with you about at the conference. Absolutely. And they're also really neat features because you can progressively enhance into the scroll-driven animations and view transitions. And so it's not like you either have it or you don't. There's like a have your cake and eat it too scenario. And I'm super happy to walk you all through it. Yeah, come say hi. Yeah, awesome, awesome.

[04:37] Adam is a very nice person. I think, actually, if I'm trying to remember, I don't think we've actually met in person before. We have not. You've met my younger brother. Yeah, that's right. So I'm really looking forward to meeting you in person. And I do hope that you bring your Onewheel. I'll bring all of mine, and we can go for a ride.

[04:57] That'll be sweet. Do you fly with yours? Do I just take my GT apart and fly with it? Or what's the flow? I have a flying Onewheel. It's the pint. So that one is allowed in the cabin. I put it in my bag. It's like basically everything I've got.

[05:14] And then I've got clothes around it and stuff. But yeah, I check that, or I carry on with that. I have heard people have success just disconnecting the battery from the motor. And then you can check that, I guess. Probably look that up first, because that

[05:32] would be pretty awful if the TSA was like, nope, sorry. Yeah, I modified my pint, so I've made it unflyable. I put a double-sized Chinese battery in it, and now I can't. I'm worried that if they open it up, they're going to be like, hey, this says it has this much juice in it. And I'm like, it does.

[05:50] And they're like, well, that's above the juice limit. And I'm like, I know. That's too bad. Oh, well, that's OK. I'll bring an extra for you to ride, and we're going to have a really good time up in Park City. Sweet. I'm excited. There's also that site Friend With A. Maybe I'll go there and see if I can bring one for $40 or whatever. Totally, totally.

[06:09] Well, dude, thank you so much for chatting with me real quick and giving the opportunity for people to get to know you a little bit. And yeah, we'll look forward to seeing you in Park City on April 11 at Epic Web Dev. Be there.

[00:00] Hey everybody, this is Alex Anderson I'm super excited for Alex to be speaking at epic webconf in April and I want you to get to know him a little bit He's a good friend of mine. Alex. Can you introduce yourself to us for sure? I am a software developer at echo bind. We're an agency that makes fancy websites for folks

[00:20] I also have a little side project that is a spaceship bridge simulator game built with web technologies So everyone can get together and pretend roleplay as if they're on the bridge of the Enterprise flying a ship through space So that's called thorium. That's a good fun And I like to bake and

[00:43] Yeah Awesome yeah, I'm actually curious about the the ship emulator the bridge emulator We've talked about this before you've actually been on my podcast before folks can take a look at that

[00:59] But I think lots of people are gonna be like, whoa. Whoa ship emulator. Like what is this? So it this is And correct me if I'm wrong just like for Like science centers where they have a built-in install of these different Consoles I guess or terminals where you can sit and you know

[01:21] It kind of set up like it's the bridge on the Enterprise or something like that Or is this a game that people can play on their own? Like when organized their own little bridge at home, how does that typically work? Yeah I got my start at one of these space centers In Utah where they have fifth and sixth graders come for field trips

[01:41] So half of the field trip is spent learning about science and space and light and gravity and stuff And then the other half they spend in the simulators doing these live-action missions where each of them has the different job So those are physical sets that look like bridge like starship bridges, which is really cool

[01:59] but as I've come to find it actually is a whole genre of Video games and there are a couple of them out there that you can do this in your living room with friends. So Artemis is the big one that folks probably have heard of there's another one called empty Epsilon another called starship horizons These are all pretty easy to Google

[02:19] That all kind of do the same thing in your living room And I'm working on a version that also you can do in your living room But it's open source and built on the web. So If anyone wants to go to better, hey, I mean, I'm not gonna say that the web or open source is better or worse but it's just my differentiating factor

[02:40] Yeah. Yeah, very cool. That's that's a lot of fun. I I really enjoyed those the intersection between software and the real world and finding ways to To use software not to escape from the real world, but to experience the real world and more deeply I guess. Mm-hmm

[03:00] Yeah for sure cool, so You're coming to Utah again your old stomping grounds for epic webconf and You're gonna be speaking about local first development something that's been on the minds of a lot of people Do you want to talk a little bit about what you're thinking for your talk?

[03:20] yeah, local first was first coined by an article written by a research team called ink and switch Where they talk about seven different? Ideals of software that apps can try and embody And they they wrapped it all up in local first architecture

[03:41] So things like the data lives on your device, which means you're able to access it really quickly But it still synchronizes to the web so that you can collaborate with other people And you have control over your data instead of just giving your data to a giant megacorp and having no idea

[04:00] What control you have over that data in the future things like that? As it turns out the reason you don't see a whole lot of local first apps is because it's really hard to do especially on the web just because of some of the deficiencies Deficiencies some of the decisions that web browsers have made trade-offs

[04:20] in the name of privacy and security which is a little ironic given that local first is a lot about privacy and security, but The one example is Safari web browser will indiscriminately delete data if you haven't visited a website in so many days Just to make it harder for for people to track you online. So trade-offs

[04:44] That's not to say it isn't valuable to do things That are part of this local first ideology on websites and I'll show an example of an app that I've built using remix in as a server rendered app that

[05:03] Ended up not working very well for me because I needed to use it in a place that I didn't have an internet connection and so I would make requests and they'd fail and I'd be like Oh now I can't use any of my app because I don't have an internet connection to get to a good page again So having the app all of the code and the data for that app be local to my device

[05:22] Makes it so that I can continue using that app Even if I don't have an internet connection, which is pretty common using this particular type of app I don't want to give away what the app is yet, but there's a hint to it in the title of my talk

[05:39] Okay, all right, well, I don't want to spoil anything either so I I'm not gonna start making guesses but yeah that I think Relatively recently is when Client loader and client action showed up. Is that gonna have a pretty big? Or is that a big aspect of what makes this work with the remix app?

[06:02] For sure, it makes it a little bit easier still a little it's it's tricky to do well But it makes it a little bit easier. You don't have to jump through so many hoops because of what remix provides to you with those Those tools and it makes it easy to combine

[06:18] Local data from your device with data from the cloud from your server still so you can still have server-side rendering for Bots and crawlers and for progressive enhancement when you do have an internet connection While falling back to the local first data when you're offline

[06:37] Hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. Very cool. Well, I think I guess one other question that I have about this topic Before we get to the talk in in April Is do you see this? The entire set of features like those seven principles

[06:57] being like really necessary for a lot of like most apps or are is there like a spectrum of like You know different features can be useful for different types of apps Yeah, I think that it is possible to embody all seven in an app But like I said earlier not on the web

[07:17] But embodying some of those principles, which I'll reiterate in the talk and you can go look at the the local first Paper that was written by ink and switch if you want to see all seven of them You can pick and choose from them certainly to make your app better more robust more collaborative that kind of thing And there are a lot of tools that lets you do that already

[07:40] Which I'll do a survey of in the talk as well Cool. Well, I'm looking forward to that for sure. I think that's going to be a very interesting talk The last thing that I want to ask you about is when we're there at the conference You definitely want to talk with people who are there and everything. So I'm going to On your behalf. I'm inviting attendees to come talk to Alex

[08:03] But what are some of the things that you're excited to talk with people about at the event I'm Interested to see I Guess what people are building themselves What what most fascinates me is I talk about my cool spaceship project and people like ooh

[08:24] And then other people talk about their cool side projects and I'm like, ooh There's just a lot of cool people doing cool things that it's not super visible because they're not on Twitter or they're not They're not advertising themselves as much as other things are Hmm, but still being able to hear about those things in person is very cool. So

[08:49] Even even if your cool side project is a new recipe for for bread Because I like baking That sounds great. Yeah. Yes, you could talk to me about my bread recipes, too. I'd be happy to share them. I Have a friend we went over to his house for dinner last week

[09:07] And he had some bread that he'd made and he just got into making bread because it's kind of fun I guess so it is maybe I should look into that It is the gift that keeps on giving anything related to cooking because people love food They will always be happy when you give them free delicious food

[09:24] Mmm, yeah, that makes sense. All right. Hey, thanks Alex looking forward to seeing you in Park City in April likewise Bye everybody

[00:00] Hello, everybody. I'm so excited to introduce to you my friend, Artem. And Artem, you're going to have to pronounce your last name. I've tried it before. We've done podcasts together before, and I did not do a good job. No, actually, you did a fantastic job last time.

[00:17] Okay, I'll see if I can do it. Zakarin... no, no, no, Zakarchenko. Yes, yeah, that's right. Yeah, Zakarchenko. Yeah, Zakarchenko. Yeah. Well, so, Artem, can you introduce yourself to folks a little bit? Get them excited to meet you at Epic Web Conf.

[00:36] For sure. Hey there, my name is Artem. I'm a software engineer based in the Czech Republic. I'm passionate about testing, API mocking, API design, and web standards. And I hope that I will be talking about those on Epic Web Conf.

[00:52] Awesome. Yeah, so why don't you tell everybody about what you do for your day-to-day? Typically, I would ask about your job, but I know that your job is kind of unique, so why don't you tell people about what you're doing?

[01:08] Yeah, so a couple of months ago, I decided to switch from a full-time job and basically focus on educating people. I wanted to share more what I know about testing, so I joined with Kent, and I am a part of the Epic Web team right now,

[01:24] and I'm working on my first workshop, which is going to be focused on fundamentals of testing. It's been quite crazy, and my day-to-day routine is different every day, so I'm trying to basically balance between working on the workshop, articles, videos, and also doing some open-source work.

[01:41] And it's looking really cool, and I hope to share more of those things this year and hopefully years to come. That's awesome. It's a very familiar story for me. I remember doing that very well, and it's been awesome.

[01:56] So I do hope that you enjoyed that and that it pays off well for you. And one thing that you're doing that I never did was actually work on getting sponsorship for your open-source so that you can actually justify the time that you're putting into that.

[02:13] So that has been awesome as well. Yeah. So the open-source project that you work on primarily is MSW. Can you give us a brief history of what that is all about and why people should care about MSW? Yeah, so MSW, or Mock Service Worker, it's an API mocking library,

[02:31] so it basically allows you to capture requests, observe them, and if you want to respond to them with particular mock responses. It's becoming to be quite a long-lived project at this point. I think it's like six years old now. Wow.

[02:50] Yeah, it's crazy. Time flies really fast, especially when you work in an open-source. And it's become more and more used. It's almost a de facto choice right now when you're trying to mock APIs when you're testing or developing JavaScript apps. And I think it's really great. I hope so.

[03:07] I'm being very lucky to get a lot of feedback from a bunch of people all over the world, how to improve it, how to make it better, reporting bugs, and everything around it. So we finally arrived at this huge monumental change last year, which was MSW 2.0,

[03:24] which brought the whole library and the API mocking experience closer to the platform. So people are working with requests and responses as they would normally do that in JavaScript. And I think it's a fantastic move forward. Yeah. Yeah, I'm definitely a huge fan of that.

[03:42] The closer that all of our abstractions can be to exposing platform APIs rather than wrapping them with their own bespoke APIs, the more shareable our code is, the more shareable our knowledge of the code is. There's just so many benefits to getting closer to those standards.

[03:59] So yeah, super huge fan of what you've been doing. I'm one of the early adopters of MSW and really happy about what MSW has been doing over, I can't believe, six years. That's wild. Oh, yeah. Cool. So with the interest in testing,

[04:18] the workshop that you're putting together, what is it that has gotten you so fascinated by testing? I mean, mocking API calls and stuff, that's one part testing, but also partially development and stuff as well.

[04:33] So I suppose MSW might have some part in your story of why testing is important to you. But yeah, let's hear a little bit about that story. Yeah, so it's maybe a little weird, but I got into testing by fearing testing a lot

[04:52] because I never studied anything computer science related in my life. And when I got to seeing these first tests in the wild, I was really scared of those. And I didn't know how to write them, and I tried to avoid them and push this task to somebody else. But then somehow, and it's really hard to pinpoint,

[05:10] but over time, I tried to write a test, then I tried another one, and then I tried testing a bunch of different stuff. And somehow years later, I arrived at this point where it's not scary, it's essential. It's like you approach things from your intention standpoint,

[05:29] what I want this code to do, and then very often you just put that intention into test. And so I decided to get all that experience and maybe share it a little with people and also learn. I already learned a lot just by preparing to these workshops, and I hope to learn even more in the future.

[05:47] Yeah, you said a couple of things that resonate with me a lot. That last thing that you said, you learn a lot by preparing the workshops. That is so, so the case. Especially early on in my career, but even still, my secret to learning and acquiring knowledge

[06:05] is by just sharing the knowledge that I acquire as I do that. And I think that just solidifies your understanding of whatever it is that you're learning. So yeah, super agree with that. And then also just the incidental experience with testing, like the more you do it, the more you do it.

[06:23] And then you suddenly develop these opinions, and all of a sudden you can have a conversation with somebody or write articles, which you've done. I think you've done three or four articles now on Epic Web. And all really good articles in their own right.

[06:38] So I'm super jazzed to have you as part of the team on Epic Web producing material on testing. I think you're doing a fabulous job and super excited about what you're going to be doing there in the future. So at the conference, of course, as I was putting this conference together,

[06:57] I'm like, well, I definitely want to have Artem there. And I expect he'll probably want to talk about testing. What are some of the things that you're thinking about for what your talk will be at the conference? So it's not decided yet. So it's going to remain a bit of a secret. But there are a couple of topics that are flying around.

[07:14] So first one is related to this recent movement to React server components and this paradigm as more and more frameworks can adopt it. Naturally ask the question, how are we going to test that? And I may have some ideas about it. I have an experimental API developed as a part of MSW

[07:33] in this context, focusing on the network parts of things. So we kind of establish the proper boundaries in tests, even when we're testing React server components. So I think this is a really cool approach and I would love to talk more about it. If I get it to the point that it's worth sharing, then you will absolutely hear about it one way or another.

[07:51] And I have a couple of other cool ideas like tackling some of the long lasting issues with MSW. So it couldn't properly run in parallel tests because it introduced a shared state of handlers that leave outside the test. That's the whole point of MSW. It's like a standalone layer of your network description

[08:10] that leaves on top of everything else. But it had some side effects as well, like the shared state. And so when a bunch of tests run in parallel, suddenly one test can say, if you fetch the user, then respond with an error. And then another parallel test tries to fetch the user and expect successful response. That's been quite an issue.

[08:28] And I think that I arrived at the way to solve that. And I really love the solution because it uses just standard Node.js API. So once again, if you're hitting this, I'm using the standard. It's probably a good direction. So I will gather more feedback on that

[08:45] and definitely share and keep people updated. And there's also one more thing, probably like very early to speak about that, but I had some progress on WebSocket support in MSW. And this will be huge once it lands. And until then, yeah,

[09:02] I'm just gonna keep people on the tip of their seats. Yeah, awesome. Yeah, that's definitely, I know that that's one that has been long requested and definitely needed. There's not a solution for the mocking WebSockets as actual WebSockets at all.

[09:21] The only solution you can have is to mock the modules themselves, which I know that you have a lot of thoughts on mocking modules instead of the network requests, which we don't have time for here. But the last thing I wanted to ask about or make sure we mention is the workshop

[09:39] that you're gonna be giving on site, in person at the conference as well. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about that? Oh, for sure. So basically I spent the last couple of months working on this huge amount of material and it's gonna focus on the fundamentals of testing. And I'm really excited to give the live workshop

[09:58] as a part of Epic Web Conference. So what you're gonna learn from that workshop is basically everything you need to know to approach testing. So we're gonna start from the mental models you need to have, answering questions like what is an automated test? Why do you write it? What should you test?

[10:16] And going through a lot of practical things as well, like how do you write assertions? What they are? What usefulness you get from them? And a lot of other things. There's five modules and a bunch of exercises in each module. And I try to do something interesting with this workshop.

[10:34] I try to show an evolution of a single module. So we're gonna start by testing a single function and over the whole workshop, this function will evolve, change. Its intention is gonna change. So we're gonna see how we adjust or don't adjust the tests. And I just wanted to bring it closer to how people test actual code.

[10:53] I really hope that folks would love the approach and testing that I'm gonna share with them. I've been using a lot of this knowledge for years and now I got the chance to finally put it in a more structured, apprehensible form. So yeah, it's gonna be awesome.

[11:10] And I really look forward to seeing a bunch of people there. Awesome. Yeah, I am super excited to see that myself. And at the time of this recording, you're actually also giving a remote version of that workshop at the end of February. So if anybody is watching this at that time,

[11:28] go see if there are still seats available. I'm looking forward to being there for that as well. Artem, this has been a pleasure to chat with you. I appreciate you giving some of your time today and I hope to see everybody in Park City on April 11th so we can meet you. Oh, oh my goodness. I almost forgot. There's one more question I wanted to ask you.

[11:48] So when we're at the conference, there are plenty of times for breaks and the breaks are extended breaks so you have plenty of time to chat with people and stuff. So what are the sorts of things that you're hoping people come and talk with you about? You can talk about anything with me, hopefully engineering. You can also talk medicine,

[12:06] but I am very bad in English terms. Oh. Yeah, let's talk about testing. Let's talk about different tooling. You can share things you struggle to test. I would love to hear those. I can share a few struggles of my own if you're interested. But yeah, just anything. You can tell me about how you got into engineering and what inspires you

[12:26] and maybe discuss the last talk with me. So yeah, just don't be shy. Very good. Awesome. Hey, thank you so much, Artem. We'll see you in April. Yeah, see you all soon. Thank you.

[00:00] Hello, everyone. I'm super excited to be joined by Barry McGee. How are you doing, Barry? I'm doing good. Thanks, Kent. What about you? Thank you. I'm doing great, thanks. So, Barry is... Actually, I'll let Barry introduce himself.

[00:16] This is actually the first time that I've talked, not face-to-face, but, like, synchronously with Barry. And so, we just first interacted on Twitter relatively recently. So, I want to get to know you as well.

[00:32] So, tell us a little bit about yourself. What do you like to do, and where are you working, and all that stuff? Sure. No worries, Kent. Yeah. Hi, I'm Barry. I'm based in Belfast, and I've been working on the web for almost two decades.

[00:49] So, primarily on the front end, I've worked for the BBC, I've worked for FutureLearn, QHoot, Ubuntu, and I currently work for Shopify.

[01:03] I've been working remotely full-time since 2016. So, that was prior to the whole COVID pandemic thing. When it was back in the day, I used to say, I work from home full-time, and people would be like, no way, that can't be done.

[01:20] Well, yeah, turns out it can be done. So, yeah, I joined Shopify mid-2021. I've been on the shop team the entire time I have been with Shopify.

[01:37] Although I started off working on the app, so I was working with React Native for the first couple of years. And then about the time that Shopify acquired Remix, we started to think of what shop would look like on the web.

[01:54] So, I was very excited to move to that project, and even more excited to get stuck in and have a deep dive into Remix.

[02:06] So, that's what my talk will be about at the Epic Web Conference, about how we built the shop on web using Remix and how we built that scale.

[02:20] And also, we used a certain amount of AI there as well for the chatbox, which is scoped to Shopify Core, and we'll talk Shopify Core, etc.

[02:34] So, there's kind of some interesting challenges we had with that and how we keep that synced with the native app. So, that will be largely what my talk will be about.

[02:48] Personally, I'm based here in Belfast. I have a four-year-old boy and a two-year-old girl. So, I've just pointed to some pictures on my wall. So, they keep me pretty busy outside of work.

[03:06] When I get time to do some things, which I like to do, I like to cycle. So, I've got a road bike, and if I can get out on the road for two or three hours at a time, that's something that I like to do.

[03:19] And I'm turning 40 this year, so I have a bit of a fit-for-40 chick going on when I'm trying to just look after myself a little bit better. So, yeah, that's kind of a brief overview of where I've been coming from.

[03:38] And, yeah, really looking forward to the conference. Awesome. That is super. I've got lots of things I want to ask you about. That's exciting to have a four-year-old and a two-year-old. That's a very fun time of life. It is, yeah.

[03:54] And I hope that, depending on the way weather goes, we might be able to get you cycling in Utah in April. Oh, wow. We've got really, really good mountain biking and even road biking as well. So, it kind of depends. Part of me hopes that we can do that for you.

[04:13] The other part of me is hoping we have a lot of snow so that we can do skiing and snowboarding as well. But we might be able to do both. Wow, awesome. Yeah, there could be snow in the mountains and good road biking around too.

[04:28] So, definitely look around in Park City because that is 100% a very common activity around here. So, super cool. Absolutely, yeah. I've been taking a look. It's right in the foothills of the – I forget the name of the mountains, but they begin with M.

[04:44] Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. There's a particular mountain that began with M. Oh, Mount Tipinogas, maybe? Okay. Perhaps, yeah. That sounds like something I would struggle to recall.

[04:58] Yeah, I can see Mount Tipinogas from my back porch. So, yeah, it's a beautiful, beautiful place. Very cool, very cool.

[05:08] So, let me try and do my best to describe what the Shop app really does and then you can correct me for what I miss up.

[05:19] So, it's my understanding that the Shop app is basically almost like an Amazon marketplace type thing where you can go there, you can search for what you're looking for,

[05:31] and I'm guessing that all the products listed on there are just products that are on Shopify stores wherever, all over the web. And then the AI is there as just a tool that will enable you to find what you're looking for a lot easier than you can with a search.

[05:50] Like, sometimes you need to solve a problem and you don't know what products you need to solve that problem, and so the AI can help you find that. Did I describe Shop app very well or is that – am I missing anything?

[06:02] No, I think that's a pretty good overview. Shop is an additional sales channel for merchants to live alongside their already existing Shopify store.

[06:16] Shop is not in competition with their store and not all of the Shopify merchants are yet part of the Shop sales channel. Is that something they need to turn on, in particular if they have been on Shopify for a while?

[06:34] And the really fantastic thing about the AI is that it is context aware. So, when you search for something on Shop, like let's say I'm going to Park City, Utah and I need a new pair of ski boots.

[06:54] When I search for ski boots, the sidebar in Shop web, it is context aware of what you're currently looking at. And as you move through the Shop app, it's kind of a world that, oh, you chose a blue set of boots.

[07:12] So, it's like, well, maybe I want to show you more blue ski boots. Or you've chosen men's. Okay, so you're looking for men's blue ski boots.

[07:22] So, Shop can be smarter as you move through to show you more context aware products. And Shopify's main mission is to make commerce better for absolutely everyone.

[07:40] So, what this does is remove the friction from users to get them to what they want faster. I like that a lot. I think that's a very cool way to use AI.

[07:55] And an interesting situation where the AI is not just like a chat GPT that's been plugged into your site, but actually connected with your own products and just helps people to find what they're looking for more easily.

[08:12] And the level of context that you're able to provide as they move through the site is very, very interesting. I don't know how much you can tell me or if you want to spoil any of your talk,

[08:24] but I wonder whether you're using a service for the AI or is Shopify running the AI itself, like doing something homegrown? Somewhere in the middle. So, it's not entirely Shopify, but it's not entirely using a third party vendor either.

[08:43] But I will elaborate a lot more on that in my talk. I don't want to give all the spoilers away, so I have to keep a certain amount back. Very good. Yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing about that. So, while we're at the conference, we're going to have extended breaks. That's a big reason why people come to a conference.

[09:02] Otherwise, they can just watch the videos online later. And so, we do have those extended breaks. And I'm curious to know what are the sorts of things that you're hoping to talk with people about during those breaks or what would you like people to come and talk with you about during those breaks?

[09:19] Okay, yeah, that's super interesting. One of the things which initially attracted us to Remix is obviously how fast it is. It's server-side rendered. It's fast straight out of the box.

[09:33] But of course, you don't push to live what you get straight out of the box. You have to then start to build stuff on top of that. And then as you do, things inevitably slow down. So, we're kind of in a battle to keep it fast.

[09:51] And I've seen that Ryan this week was posting stuff about caching and what the caching strategies are. And that's something which we're constantly taking a look at, constantly reassessing.

[10:09] I've been, this past month or two, taking a look at benchmarking from a web-perf point of view. You know, how fast we currently are, where we can make improvements.

[10:22] And that's something which is actually quite tough because all of the typical stuff when you go to take a look at an existing big app, you've got a load of stuff which you can immediately think of.

[10:39] But because Remix straight out of the box has already thought about a lot of stuff, it's really about getting the last 10% of optimizations in terms of web-perf. So, that's kind of a big interest of mine.

[10:57] And so, if there's any web performance experts who would be at the conference, I would love to speak to you. Very cool. Yeah, that sounds very interesting.

[11:08] Caching is a really big topic, and I have plans to put together some material about caching in the coming months, assuming I can get all the other things done that I need to. But yeah, I do a lot of caching on my personal website.

[11:26] And not just caching, that's just one tool in your tool belt for performance optimization. So, I've got another workshop that works for that too. But a big topic, and definitely looking forward to talking with people about that at the conference. So, Barry, thank you so much for giving us some of your time today.

[11:45] Not at all, Ken. Thank you. Yeah, it's great to get to know you. Anyway, I'm looking forward to meeting you in person in April at Epic Web Conf. And yeah, we'll look forward to seeing our viewers there as well. See you all later. Fantastic. Looking forward to it. Bye-bye.

[00:00] Hello, everybody. I am excited to be joined by my friend, Dan. How are you doing, Dan? Great. How are you doing, Ken? Doing awesome. So, Dan, actually, this is the first time we're meeting, but I know people

[00:15] that have worked for you or do work for you, and they speak highly of that experience. So yeah, I'm excited to get to know you a little bit. I want folks who are potentially going to come to the conference, or at least watch online, to get to know you a little bit before as well. So can you give us a little intro to yourself?

[00:34] Yeah, sure. Thanks. Yeah, so my name is Dan Farrelly. I am the CTO and a co-founder at the company called Jest. Previously, I was the CTO at Buffer.com, and previously, I worked up from a front-end engineer, full-stack engineer, to become the CTO of that company. And across

[00:53] my career, I've started in the front-end and then worked across the full-stack, gotten to infra and DevOps, and I've kind of worked in all the different areas. So I really enjoy all the aspects of building software, and everything's been in the cloud since day one.

[01:12] So it's just where I feel comfortable, and I think it's just a lot of fun problems every single day that you get to solve. And I guess interacting and learning from the community has been really big for me for the last 10 years, or it's a little bit long in that now.

[01:31] But yeah, it's been fantastic. Wow, yeah. Time flies, and our interests change over time as well. And so bouncing around the whole stack is fun. Do you still find yourself doing front-end, back-end web stuff, or are you all infra now?

[01:50] It's all across the board still, because we're a small team at Ingest, and we have all types of engineers, full-stack, front-end, and infra-heavy folks. And there's always new problems, right? As you're scaling your product or finding cracks in assumptions that you made at the

[02:06] time that the scale changed in six months, it kind of pulls you in different areas, which is fantastic. It's fun. There's always new challenges. So I think we were just researching something with a database that we have that kind of has reached the scale that we feel

[02:26] good about, and we need to separate it and have a plan. So we're all researching, comparing database options. And that's just like, that's fun. And yesterday, it was me dealing with some front-end stuff. So I love the variety. Maybe I'm a generalist. Yeah, that's fun. So I take it that it's very intentional that Ingest is trying to stay

[02:46] small and not just grow to this massive, as far as the number of employees and everything. I always admire companies that try to maintain a reasonable size, because I think there's

[02:58] a lot that you can do with fewer people. And as you grow, there are just new challenges that you have to face that don't involve the core offering that you provide. Would you say that's kind of your goals there?

[03:14] Yeah, yeah. I think, of course, over time, it makes a lot of sense when you grow a team to bring in new talented folks. But I think, ideally, when your team is small, that is

[03:29] sometimes so fun, because also you can touch and get context on what is going on. So you don't over-specialize and you can understand about the user and about what the problems are on different parts of the system, which I think also exposes you to the whole picture.

[03:46] Because the reason why your app might be slow might be because of your database, or it might be because of this one service, or it might be because of how you're handling something in your API. And I think if you're heavily compartmentalized, you may not have exposure

[04:03] to that. So I think that's when you're trying to move quickly and trying to solve things net new for a customer, I think it's amazing to stay small. And then just the communication overhead is also extremely small too. So it generally tends to, when you hire people in the beginning, to attract more generalist

[04:21] folks. And as you get bigger, maybe some more specialization. But yeah, I think being intentional there is always key because I think, we've all heard it probably and worked in orgs where you hire a bunch more people and it doesn't solve problems, right? It maybe takes some

[04:36] problems and makes them larger, just over a bigger scale. So I think it's really key to be intentional about how you're growing a team and get the input also of your team to feel back, to say like, all right, how should we grow this? And make sure that there's

[04:52] stakeholders because that's, I think anyone who joins an early team wants to feel like they're part of something like they can contribute on different levels. So I totally agree. I think we had a relatively small team at Buffer. And I think the best thing that we tried to

[05:06] do over the years there were improve the tooling and allow people to do more with having to worry about, I don't know, we didn't have a gigantic infrastructure team. We had a very lean team that was very good, but we streamlined and automated as much as possible. So adopted

[05:25] DevOps principles very early to enable product engineers to just ship, not have to worry about anything. So I think that's just some intentions about how you need to grow. And I think at this stage, it's blast. And I like to stay small as much as we can.

[05:42] Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's cool. And so because you're a small team, I'm guessing that you find yourself even as the CTO, you find yourself doing quite a bit of development on the platform as well. Is that right?

[05:57] Yeah. Yeah. Jumping in here and there. I find myself in the last year we've grown from maybe like three or four people to just over 10. And we're going north of that a little bit, you know, little by little. And I don't have that. I used to be writing a lot more code. I don't

[06:14] have the time for it right now. It's too many, you know, jumping around. So I try to unblock people mostly. I end up trying to do the things that people don't want to do. So it's like, you know, it's this army knife type thing. And I think that that's what, you know, you end up having to be to not allow your team to like really do what they're great at and really

[06:32] motivated to do the hard stuff that they can build out and own long term. So, yeah, it's still still a fair bit of coding. And yeah, the stack always changes. You always get to learn new things. So you got to stay sharp. I think that's one thing that like I when I was CTO

[06:49] buffer, I'd like maybe didn't code as much. And then coming back, coming and starting ingest was like it was, you know, coding and building products full time again. And that was just like very fulfilling to me. I kind of forgot how much I missed being hands on. Yeah. Yeah. Creating and building stuff. Yeah. Very cool. So at the conference, you're going

[07:09] to be speaking. Do you want to give us a little preview of some of the things that you're thinking about, including in your talk? Yeah. Yeah. So I think, you know, I kind of hinted at it wasn't really intentional. It just kind of came out that way before. But about how, you know. APIs can become slow or bloated

[07:29] on over time, they often like start really small and nice and clean. And then you're just application gets more complex. Right. You add new database, database models. Maybe now you're you're writing to multiple tables in an endpoint. Your application starts to get a little bit slower. Maybe there's a there's transactions that need to happen. Maybe there's

[07:47] third party services that you need to communicate. And what originally started to be so like small and beautiful and simple ends up sometimes just getting more complex over time, maybe more bloated. And like that's natural. That's totally natural. There's nothing wrong with that. Every everything I think goes through that. That's that's growth and expanding and

[08:06] making your application more powerful. Yeah, that's the real world. Yeah, that's just what it is. Right. And it's I think what's what's what gets hard over time is like, how do you approach those problems? How do you improve an API that's been around for

[08:25] eight years? Right. Even four years. And how do we make this faster? But we don't reduce any reliability for our users because, you know, they get longer. The APIs can get slower. Your application might get a little bit slower. The user experience gets slower. It's like everyone starts to feel it. And sometimes they're those things you're like, I don't want to touch that

[08:44] one. So really, really. And like I can I know a lot of examples. I'm sure you can. I'm sure other people are listening or like I know I have that function. That's 500 lines and no one touches it. So, you know, it's a short talk, but I just kind of wanted to talk about some

[09:00] basically like fundamental patterns and I think considerations for approaching and improving those those types of applications, those those challenges over time, because, you know, it's like any, you know, sometimes those core functions or those core endpoints are the most

[09:19] important part of your entire system. And so, you know, it's key to be able to maintain and improve that. Right. It's like taking care of your own home or something that you know, your hobby that you like, you know, it's maintaining that. So I'd like to talk a little bit about

[09:34] that, how to like break out of some of those those those systems and improve things with the use of background functions and events and different type of ways to ensure reliability when you do that. So, cool. It's some fun stuff. It's a topic that I'm passionate about.

[09:50] Well, yeah, clearly, I'm looking forward to hearing that talk. Now, while we're at the conference, we're going to have plenty of people watching online and people are going to be there and they're going to want to talk to you, Dan. So what are you hoping that people come and talk with you about and what are you hoping to be able to talk with others about?

[10:09] Yeah, yeah. You know, you know, I'll be totally selfishly, you know, it's I'll be honest, it's adding just we're building a developer tool. So I've just been it's the previously I built consumer like B2B tools, but for marketing teams. So I'm just like so excited building Ingest and

[10:29] talking to developers every day and learning what their problems are and what are their challenges and how do they think about how do they approach the problems that they want to solve? Because I think that's just, you know, it's for me just personally has always been interesting, you know, going to meetups, local meetups and conferences before in the day, like

[10:48] back in New York and I've been in SF and now I live in Detroit and it's amazing interacting with folks. And like, that's really like what I'm all looking for is just like hearing what people are working on and sharing stories and ideas and stuff. Because I think that's like in when I've been to all those events over the span of my career, that's where I've had like light bulb

[11:08] moments and leveled up and then like, oh my goodness, I did that just clicked, you know, like the first time I saw someone do unit testing, it was a meetup and I was like, what is this going to be about? I was like, oh my god, and it was very early on in my career to help so much. So I think

[11:21] that's just like what I it fuels me also for the next, you know, few months to go out and be inspired. So like that's that's I'm excited to chat with other folks about that. And hopefully they can inspire me, hopefully I can inspire them and just build off that. So I think that's

[11:37] what's beautiful about the like, software community in general and how it's always been. Yeah, yeah. That's the sort of connection that you can only really have in person, where you're, you know, looking at each other face to face and having these conversations. And I've had lots of

[11:55] experiences where you develop that relationship. And now, like you may have known each other online before, but now that you've like talked to that person, your conversations online are just deeper, as well. So I'm looking forward to meeting you in person for that. And yeah, super happy to

[12:13] have you on that stage in April. So looking forward to seeing everybody there. And thanks so much for giving us your time today, Dan. Yeah, of course. Excited for the conference. And thanks, Kent. Okay, bye, everyone.

[00:00] Hey Glauber, why don't you tell us about yourself? We'll get everybody to get to know you. Awesome. First, thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited for the conference. I just want to repeat what I said on Twitter. It's not going to be a good conference. This is lining up to be an epic conference, so I'm happy to be there.

[00:18] I just got my tickets today, so I'm super excited. I'm Glauber, calling in today from London, Canada, not the one in the UK. I moved out of Toronto a couple of years ago to this small town called London,

[00:34] two hours west of Toronto, and now I spend most of my time explaining to people that no, I did not move to the UK, even though my LinkedIn profile clearly says London, Canada. So here I am, excited to fly to Salt Lake City soon.

[00:49] I am the founder and CEO of Turso, and I come from a systems programming background. My first dabbling into tech, let's call it that way, was through open source with the Linux kernel in the early 2000s, where I worked for around 10 years, most of the time at Red Hat,

[01:08] some of the time in another smaller company, and some of the time purely in the beginning, purely as an open source contributor, which is how I started. I later joined a startup that pivoted into a product called Scilla,

[01:23] which is a database company in the NoSQL space, and that's how I got involved with databases. And my co-founder and I, we've been huge fans of SQLite, as I know you are for a long time. We believe that it's a very underappreciated piece of technology,

[01:42] and, in fact, the title of my talk is going to be SQLite is not a toy, as lots of people seem to believe, and I'm hoping to be able to convince a large part of your audience about that. And Turso is just like SQLite for production. That's how we talk about it.

[02:00] That is awesome. Yeah, 100% agree, SQLite is not a toy. I'm using it in production and getting many queries on every request. I should probably record it for sure, but each request, when you go to kentcdots.com,

[02:18] it hits the database with a bunch of different queries. Every single page is dynamic, all loaded from SQLite. I actually have two databases, one for a cache and one for the actual data. And, yeah, it's screaming. It's so fast.

[02:33] And there are so many good things about zero latency, and we could go on and on. And you run it in production. By the way, when I claim we are SQLite for production, I don't mean that there is no way to run SQLite in production except for us. I mean that we want to make that journey easier, right?

[02:52] That's what we're trying to do with Turso. But the talk is not going to be too much about our product. Anybody is welcome to go to turso.tech and take a look at what we offer, take a look at what we have there. But, again, mostly about SQLite itself as a technology, the cool things it can do. Some of the limitations, like everything has limitations.

[03:11] Like I think sometimes people go a lot into this mindset of thinking, oh, what is the best technology? The best, the best, the best. But the reality is that, like, everything has pros and cons. So I want to talk a little bit more about that, about, like, how, again, everything has pros and cons.

[03:29] But I still believe that for a large variety of use cases, not a niche amount, for a large variety of use cases, the pros are much, much higher than the cons. Fine technology, you know, maybe I'll get a quote from you, Kent. Yeah.

[03:48] Well, yeah, for what it's worth, I migrated from Postgres to SQLite. I am a super fan. And, like, in recent years, a lot of attention has been coming over to SQLite. So, of course, Terso, what you're all doing, Fly has LightFS and LightStream,

[04:08] and then Cloudflare has their D1 data, which is SQLite-based. Even, like, I think IndexedDB or some storage thing in the browser is also SQLite-based or inspired, at least.

[04:23] So, anyway, SQLite is fantastic, phenomenal technology. I'm super excited that you're going to be speaking about that database at Epic Web.

[04:36] Is there any other, like, peek that you can give us into what you're planning on for your talk at this point? Not that I prepared the talk already, but I think that likely it's going to be done. You know, I've been having a fairly busy schedule.

[04:53] We're going to have a very busy month of March on our side here. So I've been focusing a lot on that. But, like, I do have a more or less sketch of, you know, something approximating a mental model of what I want to talk about.

[05:11] And I think it will just be talking about the limits of SQLite, right? And in talking about the limits, you can show that, yes, it has limits. But, hey, look, I mean, it's not small, right?

[05:28] So, like, in talking about the limits, you can talk about what the database is capable of doing, right? Yeah. That's actually – I love that approach because I think that a lot of the time when you're a super fan of a particular technology,

[05:44] people are always asking you, well, what are you going to – like, what will you not use this for? When I was working at Remix, people would constantly ask me, like, okay, so, like, Remix sounds cool. What is Remix not good for? And people are always very interested in what those limits are.

[06:02] And I think what you're describing is really going to surprise people. They're going to hear things that you say about SQLite and its limits, and they're going to say, wait a second. I'm not even close to that limit in my use case.

[06:17] And so maybe I should give SQLite a try for all the benefits that it offers. Yeah. And maybe this is inspired by a book that I was reading the other day that talked about, like, when a –

[06:36] there's a detective that is, like, collecting evidence for a case. And then he talks about, like, how can they determine, like, that the evidence was tampered with and modified. So you see, the claim is not that the evidence was not tampered with, because all evidence at some point, I mean,

[06:55] something will happen, and especially eyewitness testimony, which was one particular example he was describing. Like, over time, as you transcribe this and et cetera, like, you can have variations. Like, every time you tell the story, you can have a variation.

[07:10] But if you have a track record of what those variations are, like, you don't have to go and try to defend this wasn't altered. Just say, no, we know how this was altered. And because of that, I have actually even more confidence now on the original version, because I know exactly –

[07:27] like, in a sense, you have more confidence on the original now that you know which alterations happened. Then, like, if you are – I was going to say, now, this was – of course, this wasn't altered. This is the original testimony. And, look, think about it. It's the same reason why we have version control.

[07:46] And, like, you can see how your software was evolved over time, and you can learn something from that. And I think this is – you know, as I said, I haven't sat down and written the talk yet, subject to change. But I think that the mental model that I plan to approach is this.

[08:05] I mean, in showing you the limits of this technology – right? So it's not a claim of, this is great, it has no limits, and such. But, like, in showing you the boundaries, you can understand by yourself that what lies within the boundaries is a lot, right? Yeah, yeah, I love that approach, Glauber.

[08:23] I think that people are going to love that. And, yeah, I really appreciate you coming to speak at the conference. Is there anything that you would like attendees to come up and chat with you about, ask you about when they're at the conference with you?

[08:38] Look, I'm not an application developer or front-end person, but always eager to learn. So I would love to get people coming and telling me, like, what they want from their databases and what their use cases are. Like, what are the problems that you have in your day-to-day?

[08:55] You know, how other databases, and especially databases like ours that are like SaaS offerings, do not provide you with the best experience, and how can we do to help? Again, I come from this background of, like, systems-level databases. I don't have a lot of experience writing application software.

[09:11] So the way for me to understand how to provide you all with the best services is by talking, hearing, listening. So this is super valuable to me. And people can also come and talk to me about whatever they think is valuable to them as well. Like, let's not be selfish. So overall, if you haven't noticed through this interview, I love talking.

[09:30] Just come and talk to me. We're going to have a good conversation. Super. Hey, thanks so much, Glauber. Really appreciate your time, and we'll see you in April. We'll see you there, Ken.

[00:00] Hello, everybody. I am so excited to be joined by my friend Jacob Paris. Say hi, Jacob. Hey, everyone. Hi, Jacob Paris. Super excited to have you at the conference in Utah on April 11th. So make sure folks get that in your calendar so that you can come and see Jacob. I've known Jacob for a long time,

[00:19] and really excited to meet again in person in Utah and hopefully get some snow up there so that we can go snowboarding. But if not, there are lots of other cool things to do in that area, too. Anyway, before I get ahead of myself, Jacob, I would like people to get to know you a little bit.

[00:39] So could you give us an intro to who you are and what you do and what you're into? Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. So yeah, thanks for having me on here. Yeah, my name is Jacob Paris. I'm a software developer from Canada. I'm currently an ed head instructor.

[00:57] At the moment, just doing some freelancing and consulting, building a lot of cool stuff with Remix, and running the Remix Community Newsletter. I started development kind of a long, long time ago, back in game development. I sold the first Splash game back in 2011.

[01:15] And a little while after that, got into web development stuff. But I've kind of been doing full-time web development for the last six years. And a big chunk of that has been just working on internal company applications. So I don't really have a big tech back story,

[01:33] like I see a lot of the other speakers of the conference have, never worked at the FANG companies. But that's just been a lot of working for regular companies with small teams of a dozen or even fewer people, building stuff for their companies to use. So it's like some asset management

[01:52] system for construction companies, a couple CRMs, one for web developers, one for mortgage brokers. And kind of at that time, it's like every one of these apps, they're all very, very different. But they're also just tend to the same in a lot of ways.

[02:09] It's like they're just fancy UI abstractions over some common database interactions. It's all like enterprise cred stuff all the way down. And I guess at this point, most of what I know about web development comes from building those UIs over and over and over again

[02:27] and trying to make them work really, really well. And that's kind of been the biggest focus of my last little while, especially exploring with Remix, is that Remix is now making it super, super easy to be able to build those in a really high performance way that's also easy to maintain at the same time.

[02:46] And that's going to be the focus of the talk I'm doing here. So just looking at a lot of different ways we can interact with data, we can manipulate it, we can fetch it, and how to keep all of that kind of in sync and how to manipulate that when building modern web app

[03:06] or crud-type web applications. Yeah, very cool. Yeah, so that actually explains a lot about your interest in the Epic Stack and the level of contribution you've had there and everything. It seems like the Epic Stack is the perfect solution

[03:23] to the problem that you've had as you've been building pretty much the same app, the same sort of app for so many companies. Would you say that's true? Yeah, every time I go to a different place and they've got this new set of technology

[03:41] and you need to kind of relearn the new way of doing things with all these different tools, most of it's not fundamentally that different under the hood. There's a lot of different, different, different tweaks, approaches, there's a few different things to learn. But most of the time, it's not like there

[04:00] was a huge decision document chosen for why all these companies are using these tools. It's just it's what the developer knew when the first guy in charge of the project decided to start building it. Like, people go with that. I'm really excited about the Epic Stack

[04:17] because it kind of gives a little more rigorous, both as an example of, hey, which technologies could we choose, but also there's the extensive decision history. So you can see, do any of these decisions make sense for us? Should we adopt these tools in our own company?

[04:35] And that plus the dozens upon dozens of examples of things that aren't included in the stack but are still possible, making small alterations to it, I just think that's super, super useful. And it's definitely been my go-to stack for a little while

[04:53] and will continue to be for the future. Yeah, super. And I appreciate your contributions as well, both in contributing directly with code as well as articles and things that have been really helpful as well. So yeah, let's dive a little bit deeper

[05:11] into what you're planning on talking about. People know that we're recording this several months ahead of the conference, and so things can still be a little in the air in that way. But what are you thinking for the talk that you're going to be giving at Epic Web Conf?

[05:30] Yeah, so kind of the main idea, sort of the motif of the talk as I've currently sort of outlined it, is to break down the patterns of your typical Quad application. So we've got the create, the read, the update, the delete,

[05:48] the different types of sort of the different examples of having to do each of those things. So sometimes you're creating single items. Sometimes you're creating items in bulk. Sometimes you're creating them optimistically. Sometimes you're creating things, and then you get errors in the way,

[06:07] and you need to either revert changes or block it. And the same in on each of the other categories. You know, you read data with pagination, with filtering. You can update by updating whole documents or by submitting little patch diffs

[06:25] to update specific fields on it. You can hard delete items. You can soft delete items. You can just archive and hide them. You can kind of go quite deep into each of those topics and, you know, different applications will call for different requirements in each one.

[06:45] So I'd like to try and bring some clarity to the options that are available there and to try and give people a little more of a framework to choose where, you know, based on, you know, how many users we expect to have, what our interaction patterns look like.

[07:03] Maybe like how should we be structuring these queries? How should we be, you know, building this app and, you know, trying to make that work in a more reasonable or structured way? Yeah, I think a lot of people really appreciate having some of that structure.

[07:21] And actually, similar to what you said earlier, lots of that sort of thing kind of happens haphazardly. It's just like whatever we thought at the time seemed reasonable, but then these things kind of pile on it themselves and eventually you're left with something

[07:39] that clearly didn't have any forethought because, I mean, the real world is messy and new requirements come up and everything like that. So having a little bit of structure from the beginning helps a lot. So I think that I'll, yeah, I'm excited to hear your talk. So while we're at the conference, we're gonna have, it's single track,

[08:00] so everybody's gonna be there for everybody's talk. So we're not, like, missing, you know, having to choose. But we emphasize the breaks and we want to have extended breaks so that people have plenty of time to meet people and talk and things. So what are some of the things that you're excited to talk with people about?

[08:20] What are you hoping people will come and talk with you about? So I'm really excited lately with a lot of the new, the new goings on with React and the, like, the whole, it's, I'm sort of excited to speak with a lot of the Remix folks

[08:39] and, like, Brian's gonna be there. And I just like to get a little clearer of an idea of what's going on with the, with what's coming up next with Remix. But outside of that, like, there's so many cool tools out there, like in the open source ecosystem,

[09:02] like with PartyKit, what I'm building with Sly, with, yeah, it's basically, I just want to talk with people, see what they're building, and get to know a little more about the projects that everyone else is working with. Because that's the part that's most exciting to me

[09:22] when it comes to talking with other developers. Yeah, absolutely. That's the reason that we go in person. Otherwise, we all just watch the live stream and it's, you know, whatever. We can do a remote conference. But being in person, like, there's something really special about being there and being able to talk with the people there. So I'm excited to have you there and excited for people to get to meet you.

[09:41] You're a wonderful person. And I think that it'll be nice for people to see that themselves. So awesome, it's been awesome getting to know you here really briefly. And thank you so much for giving us some of your time. We'll see you in April. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'll see you there, Kyle.

[10:00] Bye, everyone.

[00:00] Hey Kent, I'm really excited to get to watch you speak at the Epic Web Conf in April. So thank you for joining. I wanted to learn a little bit more about you, so welcome, and tell me a little bit about yourself for those who don't know you. Yeah, thanks Shaundai. So this is kind of flipping the script a little bit.

[00:18] I know everybody's used to having me be the one interviewing, but I'm speaking. And so Shaundai, thank you so much. For those of you who don't know Shaundai, she's just an amazing, wonderful person that you should get to know better. But yeah, so for myself, I have a wife and five kids.

[00:35] I live in Utah with them, and I am a full-stack web developer, and my goal in life is to teach people how to build quality applications. I worked at a number of companies for a while and then went full-time teacher in like 2019, I think.

[00:55] And I created TestingJavaScript.com, EpicReact.dev, and then KentCDodds.com, also actually a pretty cool app. And then finally, Epic Web is what I'm working on now, and so I took a little break between

[01:11] Epic React and Epic Web to help build the Remix community as a member of the Remix team. That's where I get this cool sign behind me, the Remix sign. But yeah, so I ran RemixConf a couple of years, decided that I wanted to keep the conference stuff going.

[01:30] And so after I left Remix, I started planning Epic Web Conf, and so that is what's going on now. So super excited to meet everybody over in Park City in April. That's so cool. How did you get your start speaking at conferences? Oh, yeah.

[01:48] So I actually, I went to my first conference, it was NGConf here in Utah, and it was my co-workers at Domo were putting that together. And so I show up and I'm like, wow, this is amazing.

[02:07] I definitely want to do this some more. And so I started applying to conferences, I got accepted to one in, well, actually, I got rejected. It was Midwest JS, I got a rejection letter, I was kind of bummed, but it's fine, I get rejected a lot from various things.

[02:26] And they actually reached out later and said, hey, we had a speaker back out, would you be interested in speaking? And I said, yeah, that sounds great. So I got in like just barely, and that was just an awesome experience. And so I started applying to conferences a lot.

[02:44] And there was one conference, or like, I think it may have been even my second conference, I got accepted. And only after I got accepted, did I realize it was in Sweden. So I was like, oh, I guess I'm going to Sweden now. And they had me, actually, this is so crazy.

[03:00] They had me give a three hour, not really talk, but like not a workshop either. It was like a watch me code for three hours type thing. And I taught AngularJS to a crowd of like 300 people for three hours. It was just, yeah, that was crazy.

[03:17] But then the next day, I did like a regular 30 minute talk or whatever, or maybe it may have been an hour. And then the day after that, the next two days after that, I gave like a formal workshop. So I jumped into the speaking thing like really quick, and I really took to it.

[03:34] So yeah, I've probably given, well, well over 100 talks, whether it be conferences and meetups over my career. Wow, that's amazing. So if you could sum up maybe one or two learnings that you would like first time speakers to

[03:52] be able to know, what would you say? I think one thing that seems to help speakers a lot is knowing that even seasoned speakers get a little bit nervous getting up in front of a bunch of people.

[04:07] And so even though I've practiced this, and I'm really good at getting up and having that energy and stuff, and I feel confident with my material, my heart beats faster, and I'm having trouble breathing, and all of those symptoms, I just get that nervous energy before

[04:27] going up to speak. So I think that helps some speakers feel like they're not alone when they're just getting started. Another thing that helps a lot is just practice. You just have to practice your stuff.

[04:44] And the more time that you prepare and practice like in front of a mirror or like in front of your koala plushie or whatever it is, the better that that experience is going to go for you.

[04:58] And the more that you speak in general, the less time you have to practice just for like the speaker presence. You still have to, like every time you need to practice the material, but the more you speak, the less you have to focus on the process of speaking, and you can focus more of your

[05:17] attention on what the actual outcomes you want from the talk are. So as with many things, it gets better with experience. That's awesome. That's awesome. So what are you speaking about at EpicWeb.com? So I'm actually, my talk is still kind of up in the air.

[05:35] I have a couple of ideas though. So years ago, DHH gave a talk about Rails when Rails wasn't even really a thing on many people's radar, and the talk was building a blog in 15 minutes. So I think the talk was only 15 minutes long, and he said, we're going to build a blog,

[05:55] and I'm going to do it live right in front of you. And that was like a lot of people's first introduction to Rails. And like a big part of what Rails is, is code generation. And so he was like, all right, now we need a post. And so right in the terminal, make me a post, and it made the database model, migrations and all of that stuff, and even a UI for it and everything.

[06:15] And it just like blew everybody's minds that this sort of thing was possible. And now that like, with the tools that we have now, there are actually quite a few tools that are kind of similar in that way. But I think that the Epic stack could benefit from some code generation stuff like that.

[06:34] And so I have been toying with the idea of adding that to the Epic stack and then announcing it in that way at the conference. So that may happen. The challenge there is I have to build that, and I'm not sure that I have enough time to do that.

[06:47] Because I've got my Epic React workshop series that I'm working on right now. So there could be something around that. Also, I am really interested in React server components right now. I'm investing a lot of time in understanding that to the level where I can help people

[07:07] understand it and teach that. And so I could talk something about the future of React and server components and things. The future of React is so good. The server components are, it's understandable that people don't understand it.

[07:23] But it is like once we figure out how to talk about it properly, and once there's more experience in the world with that, it really is a game changer. So definitely thinking about that a little bit too.

[07:39] But I could also just do something a little bit more like, let's talk about community and how to be a good citizen of this ecosystem. And so, yeah, still a little bit up in the air for me.

[07:54] The cool thing about it, it's not really a problem, but it's a nice problem to have, is that you have so many great things that you could talk about technically, or all the things that you've learned from building a community, speaking at conferences. So the world is your oyster. Thanks.

[08:12] Is there anything, as the conference organizer, is there anything specific that you want attendees to get out of the conference itself? Yeah. So I really, my goal for the conference is, well, to take a step back.

[08:29] The reason that I love conferences so much is because it gives you an opportunity to break that virtual barrier that we have. So there could be people that you know of, but you've never talked with, or even people

[08:42] that you have talked with online, that once you meet them in person, it completely changes your experience of interacting with that person, even online. And you just get to know their mannerisms more, and you get to just know them as a person.

[09:00] They become just a much more real person to you. And so that's only the sort of thing that you can do when you meet them in person. It definitely helps to transition from, like, oh, I talk to you on Twitter sometimes, to oh, I talk to you on video chat. That is a significant difference.

[09:18] But then going from I talk to you on video to I talk to you in person, it just changes things about your relationship. And that change enables things like good networking for career opportunities, which I actually I got my job at PayPal because of a relationship I developed at a conference.

[09:38] It also allows you to collaborate on interesting software and open source related stuff, too. And so I just find that by bringing people together, really awesome and magical things happen that we want to have happen to make the world a better place.

[09:56] And so my goal as the conference organizer is to create a space where that sort of thing can happen. And I want that to happen in Utah, because I know that Utah is just a fabulous place. People love it here. I love it here, and I want more people to see how great it is.

[10:15] And it also gives me an opportunity to make space for people in the community that I think need more visibility. Certainly I bring people in who are my friends that have plenty of visibility, and they also help to draw people to the conference, too.

[10:33] So there's obviously all of that, too. But every one of the speakers at this year's event was handpicked by me. I reached out to each person. I didn't get everybody that I wanted on that stage, but I did get a lot of the people that I wanted on that stage, and I invited them personally, because I just feel like they

[10:52] have something important that I want them to share. So there is an aspect to this that's a little selfish in that I have messages that I want to get out into the world, and so I can run a conference and make that happen. I love that. It's like you're scaling yourself through community, through conferences. So that's awesome.

[11:13] Okay. Awesome. Speaking of community and people, what would you hope that people come up and talk to you about or ask you about during the conference? Yeah. I definitely want to... So first of all, we're multifaceted people. We're not just about tech, and that's one of the cool things about being at a conference

[11:32] is that you get to see the other sides of people. And so I definitely want to hear about people's personal interests. I love to talk with people about my family and my faith, and also my snowboarding and riding one-wheels and all of those things that make us more than one-dimensional.

[11:52] But I do like to hear about people's tech, and I want to hear about the tech stack that you're using and the things that you love about it and the things that are challenging with it. And I definitely appreciate when people come up and say, hey, thank you for your course because it helped me get this promotion or whatever, please do tell me that.

[12:10] It really fires me up. So those sorts of things are the kinds of things I'd love to talk with people about. I want to hear what they're working on. If you got anything out of the rest of these other interviews with speakers, hopefully one thing that you got was the speakers want to talk to you.

[12:30] So don't be nervous coming up and talking with us. We absolutely are hoping that you do that. So I hope to talk with all of you soon. Speakers love that. Awesome. Anything else that you want to add? No, that's it. Thanks Shaundai for interviewing me for this.

[12:48] For those of you listening, Shaundai had no idea that we were going to do this. I just messaged you on Twitter like, hey, could you really quick just hop in this riverside with me? So thank you, Shaundai. You did a great job as an interviewer. And thank you all. I hope to see you in April. Thank you.

[13:07] Bye. 

[00:00] Hello everybody, I am super super excited to actually this is my first time meeting Lena Virtually, and I'm super excited to meet Lena in person on April 11th for epic webconf and Lena I'd love it if you could introduce yourself to

[00:16] The folks watching so that they get to know you a little bit before the conference. Yeah, sure Hello, my name is Tina and I was a station here really working at balance in Asia So when I'm not working, I usually play video games Work on site project that I post on Twitter or I also enjoy playing tennis and soccer with my friends

[00:36] By the way used to be a professional baller player that I just decided to take a break this year since I have a lot of things going on like building really exciting projects using remix and Italian conferences Wow Done quite a bit That is cool

[00:55] Professional did you say a professional soccer player? No, well, it's player. It's a video game. Oh Okay Okay, cool. Interesting. I so I actually am not familiar with that video game Is that the primary game that you play or do you play all kinds? I?

[01:13] Mainly play FPS games and like FIFA and other like sorry games as well Cool well, that's fun. Yeah, I Only recently got back into video games. I was really big in as a teenager and then started playing a little bit more when Tears of the Kingdom was coming out and I said, yeah, I kind of would like to get back into Legend of Zelda stuff

[01:38] and so I replayed Ocarina of Time on the switch and that was that was a throwback and then played Breath of the Wild and then Tears of the Kingdom So I am definitely a Legend of Zelda and that's as far as my video games go these days But yeah, that's cool. That's fun that you

[01:59] know actually as I have been perusing your Social media and stuff to get to know you a little bit before this call It's very much a part of your personality and who you are and what you enjoy doing. So that's that's a lot of fun So with You said you're doing a lot of stuff with remix. What exactly are you using remix for?

[02:21] Well, I'm using remix for built-in full-stack applications I usually I used to work in a fintech Environment like in a fintech company like it was a banking It was a banking company, you know as a bank. So I was using remix for for making full-stack application

[02:42] Building really interesting products for for intelligent purposes Hmm cool and and now are for your full-time work. Are you still using remix or is it just for this? I just I just got a new job offer

[02:56] so I'm just searching like as a new job and I'm gonna be using you and not remix because it's really hard to get like Jobs, where are you gonna be using remix? Yeah In my previous job. I was using remix just because I had the chance to choose whatever stack I

[03:14] Would love to like to use so that's why I had to choose remix because I really love it Awesome and and your talk is going to be about remix you're Gonna be giving some tips of things that developers might not know Can you give us a little preview of what you're planning on talking about?

[03:33] Yeah, so I'm gonna be like doing a weird story about how I found out like about remix So I thought about remix two years ago I was going down YouTube and I found found out fireship the youtubers talking about remix So I found out that it was really interesting. So I want to learn more about it and I had

[03:52] I had to go and read a documentation. I was really flabbergasted by the amount of information I had to go from the documentation. I want to know more about it, but I'd find a lot of resources a lot of tutorials So I thought I can't read it I guess it's a kid, right? Yes. Yes. I had to subscribe and

[04:12] Just learn about remix and that's where I found a lot of interesting things about it and how to build full stack application How it's following with standards and it's really incredible like the things I've been building from from like one year and a half though

[04:27] So that's why I've decided to to like make a session about remix is because While I was like making projects and side projects and posted them on X Twitter. I found a lot of Misunderstanding about like really Misunderstanding about things like that we use in remix. So

[04:48] That's why I have decided to do this talk. So it's gonna be about It's gonna be a beginner to intermediate to expert level So it's gonna be like about how to utilize route loaders actions or to revalidation Format forms how to how to make forms, etc

[05:12] Yeah that data loaded caching SEO simulation, etc, so I'm just gonna be Like giving tips and sharing some real-life Projects that I've been and that's all Awesome. Oh good. I'm looking forward to seeing your talk and and

[05:30] The examples that you share and stuff. I think remix has definitely reached to that point where? The the team can't manage Making sure everybody understands how things were intended to be used and people are abusing things and you know Basically remix is hitting the real world

[05:49] And so it's very helpful to have people come in and say here's some common mistakes that people are making and things that you can Do to improve your remix apps? Very cool. So while we're at the conference the the Like we actually spend a lot of time

[06:07] Not in the talks. So we have extended breaks so that people will be able to talk with The speakers and with each other and things and so I'm sure there are people who are going to want to come and meet you And chat with you. So what are some of the things that you would love to chat with people about? Well, first of all, you just talked about like the conference

[06:27] I want to say something that I really believe in is that I want to share how valuable and meetups and conferences can be because my first job I get there from attending to Conferences. The first one was a Google developer Conference and I landed my first job because I was a speaker there even though it didn't went great

[06:47] But I I got a lot of job offers after it. So it's really important if you like trying to network with our people with other other talented speakers, so that's really great and Really looking forward to be there. Mm-hmm. I 100% agree with you I also got a job based on a relationship that I made when I was at a conference

[07:10] Mine was react rally. I think the first year they held react rally and I met who someone who was would be my co-worker at PayPal while I was at that conference and started a relationship there and then we kept in touch on Twitter and

[07:29] Yeah, then I ended up getting a job at PayPal through that relationship So I am super super agree that speaking at conferences and attending conferences It's very useful that that actually that was I was just an attendee at that conference. I wasn't even speaking So even just being an attendee and being active in talking with other people at the event

[07:48] I can make a really big impact on your career So so is there any topic that you're hoping to talk with other attendees at the conference then? Yeah, probably I don't know maybe I don't know if the oldest speaker is gonna be talking about remix But I'm kind of looking forward to talk about other topics as well

[08:09] Like everything related to front-end development AI as well. I'm really I'm really passionate about AI So I would love to meet other attendees or other speakers that are going to be talking about this. So yeah Cool. Cool. Yeah, we are going to have some AI representation there for sure because that is that's the future

[08:29] Or the present even like that is an important part of Our aspect of what it's like to develop a software in this day. So Exciting stuff. Have you ever been to Utah before? If in fact I've never known that my background image like on my Mac was was in Utah

[08:59] Okay, that's great Awesome. Yeah. Well Park City is beautiful and We have we're gonna be at the base of some beautiful mountains and there will probably be snow on top of the mountains It'll just look amazing. So Yes, I'm looking forward to having you there I think it's gonna be a lot of fun and

[09:22] yeah, I hope that other folks will come and get to know you and That we can build lasting relationships, so Thank you so much Lina for taking some time to chat with me today And yeah, we'll see you all on April 11th and Park City at epic webconf. Yeah, everyone. Goodbye

[00:00] Hello, everybody. I'm super excited to, um, yeah, have my introduce to you all my friend Madison Kanna. How are you doing, Madison? I'm doing really good. Yeah. How are you? I'm doing great. Super excited to actually this is the first time that we have met virtually.

[00:19] I'm looking forward to meeting you in person in April in Park City, Utah for Epic Web Conf. It's going to be awesome. Yeah, I'm so excited. It's gonna be so much fun. It's funny that I've never met you in person either, because I feel like I've, I've been learning from you. I've taken your courses for years now. So it's funny. This will be the first time we're meeting in real life.

[00:39] Oh, that's so I'm I didn't know that. I'm glad that that has been helpful to you. And I am definitely looking forward to meeting you in person and chatting about you and getting to know you and the things that you work on. I have followed both you and your sister for

[00:55] a little while. And it's been just a pleasure to watch your both of your careers. It's been super cool. So I, yeah, I reached out to you a couple weeks ago to ask you to be the emcee for Epic Web Conf. And I just want people to get to know you. For those folks who can't

[01:14] make it to the conference. I think it's really cool to be able to get to know the people who are going to be on stage. And then for those who are thinking about coming to the conference, maybe you can convince them that they want to come so they can actually talk with you in person. So could you give us a little introduction to yourself, Madison?

[01:33] Yeah, sure. I've been working as a web developer for five or six years now. I think I'm mostly known for running a book club, code book club for four or five years now, where every Sunday

[01:48] we jump on a Zoom call and we would read books together, go over courses. And I really started that because I felt like I didn't really have a community when I started learning to code and became a developer. And so I started that over Zoom. Zoom has been really fun,

[02:03] but I'm also super excited for this in-person conference that we've been talking about just because, you know, Zoom is great, but also just there's something about being with people. And now that COVID is over, I'm really, really excited to get back to conferences and meeting people in real life. But yeah, there's just a little bit about me.

[02:20] That is super cool. Where did you get the idea to put together a book club to meet every Sunday? Yeah, I remember I was on, you know, Reddit or on Twitter. And I realized once I got my

[02:36] first programming internship, I realized there was so much more that I still needed to learn. And I felt like I was learning alone quite often. So I'd be sitting at home on the weekends. I didn't really know anyone in my area. And so I just figured maybe I could do some sort of book

[02:52] club and started off with a JavaScript book. I had two friends who were doing it with me. And then the day before we were supposed to start reading the book, they both were just like, we don't have time for this. And so they both bowed out. And so I just thought, what if I tweeted it out? And I know almost no one followed me on Twitter really at the time,

[03:09] some people, but then a bunch of people replied and said, you know, we're also trying to learn more on the weekends or after work and things like that. We'd like to join. And then it kind of just went from there. That is super cool. I love that idea. I have found something similar to what you described where people will be all gung ho

[03:31] about learning together and, or even like, I've noticed this not just in learning, but also in open source, I'll have, there'll be a group of us who are like, okay, we're going to build this thing and it's going to be amazing. And then you just, over time, life gets in the way

[03:47] and commitments kind of falter a little bit. So I think it's really admirable that when that happened to your friends that you just said, hey, let's actually do this for real and like, open it up to more people. And I guess that, how long did you say you've been running this book

[04:07] club? Started in January, 2020. I'm like trying to calculate because it just seems like it's been such a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Four years now. That is very impressive to keep anything going

[04:22] for that long. So that is commendable effort. Very cool. And you said you talk about like books, but also courses and anything else. Like, is it all around web development or is there like a

[04:36] particular topic that you're typically talking about? Yeah. I think it's been, it was a lot of JavaScript. There's also some Python. There's been people who started other clubs within our Discord too. There was people learning Java, which I know nothing about. And then recently we had gone over,

[04:55] like last year, we went over cracking the coding interview in JavaScript and TypeScript problems. And we really tried to focus on interviewing since it was such a rough year in tech. So we jumped on and we did a lot of mob programming. So everyone gets on and tackles a certain leak

[05:09] code problem, working through it all together, trying to stay accountable, which can be really hard to do online. Yeah. That accountability is a big part of what makes those types of groups

[05:24] so useful. It's like, you're not really doing a whole lot that you can't just do by yourself, right? Like you can read the book by yourself. You can't really have the discussion and share those thoughts by yourself. But at least having somebody that is expecting you to have read

[05:42] or to have gone through the particular exercise or whatever, just makes you so much more likely to actually do it. Yeah, absolutely. I think we've read six or seven books at this point. And I just, in the last four years, I would have never shown up at all if I wasn't actually part of the club. If there wasn't these people kind of expecting me,

[06:04] then I don't think I would have read any of those books or done any of those leak code problems, right? Because it's really hard to motivate yourself when you're just completely on your own sometimes. Yeah. You know, that is such a life hack to kind of commit yourself to something.

[06:19] That is absolutely the way that I work. I'll schedule a workshop and then like, oh shoot, I've got to prepare this workshop now. So it definitely helps to have something to hold you accountable, something external to yourself, making commitments and things. I think that is a

[06:39] really awesome thing that you've done. So with the emceeing at the conference, I've never emceed before. I don't know whether you have before, but what are some of the things that you're hoping to accomplish as an emcee at the conference? I think the main thing will be

[06:57] just making sure everyone has a fantastic time. I want to meet every single person that's there, just making sure everyone has an amazing experience really. Very cool. So you're not just an emcee when you're on the stage, but you want to like talk with people and meet people

[07:14] throughout the event. Yes, absolutely. I will be everywhere. I feel like, I don't know if you can relate to this, but I'm quite an introvert and all my friends and family know that I don't really like to go out, but my one exception is programming conferences, especially with this one and just

[07:31] all the speakers that are going, you being there. At the last conference I was at, and I don't go to too many, I really try to only go to conferences that I think are just going to be so amazing and really worth it. But if I'm at a coding conference, I just, I tend to just be out just everywhere, want to meet everyone, really outgoing, really unlike myself, just because I think a lot of us,

[07:51] we spend so much time on Twitter or programming at work, and you're not necessarily seeing your community out in real life. And so I think it's just going to be so much fun. And I feel like I tend to become such an extreme extrovert and run on very little sleep, to be honest, when I attend

[08:07] the conference. I just get so excited, because you're thinking about this stuff and learning all year, but we don't often see each other in real life. And so it just really gets me excited. I like that idea. If you're going to go, you may as well make the most of it and be

[08:25] as out there as you can. And even as an introvert, just psyching yourself up a little bit and saying, I'm just going to make the most of this, and then afterward I can crash and that's fine. Yes, absolutely. That will be my vibe. Not everyone has to do that, obviously.

[08:42] But yeah, I do think I used to go to programming conferences a long time ago, and I would be a little bit shy and I wouldn't speak up. And I've really tried to change that. And I try to anyone that I meet or anyone I see standing alone, I want to go talk to them because just a bunch of great people. And I've gotten so many personal connections from

[09:01] going to conferences. A lot of my good friends today, I feel like I met them at a conference forever ago. Yeah. And those types of friendships are why you go to the conference, right? Because you could watch the talks online at Epic Web Conf. It's going to be live streamed for free

[09:17] and everything. I feel like the knowledge should be for everybody. But you go to the conference so that you can meet people and develop friendships and potentially even career opportunities and stuff like that, too. Yeah, absolutely. And it's not even just

[09:34] meeting people, but it's also solidifying an online friendship. So for me, there's people that I've talked to on Twitter. There's people like you. There's people where I think I've had somewhat of a relationship with them. I want to keep building that friendship, that connection. And when you actually go see them in real life and you have these shared experiences, there's

[09:52] something that makes it feel much more real, much more solidified, a real connection, rather than just online, which is great. But I think there's something that really deepens connection so much with this gathering in person. 100%. I can't agree more. It's very interesting

[10:09] when you have a friend online and then you meet them in person and then you go back to the online relationship because you don't stay forever, right? So you go back to the online version of the relationship, but that relationship is totally changed and you start reading their posts in their

[10:25] voice. And it's just so much easier to interact with that person online after you've met them in person. Yeah, absolutely. It feels like it's become real and you feel like you truly do know them and something feels so solidified. And there's been so many people, I would talk to them on

[10:43] Twitter or in some fashion on the internet, and I would feel like we're connecting, but then really meeting in real life feels like the thing to really solidify that. Yeah. Yeah. So Madison, what are some of the things that you're hoping people come and talk with you about at the conference or that you're hoping to talk with other people about while you're there?

[11:04] Oh my gosh, yeah. So many things. Well, Salt Lake City, a bit off topic, but I mean, I've never been to Utah before, so I'm just super excited to experience that. Definitely community building, web development, React. I know there's a lot of talk about React right now. I'm using React

[11:21] at work recently. I love React. I'm a big fan. All sorts of things. Testing too. I actually, at work recently, I was kind of put in charge of overseeing more of our testing stuff. And I actually, one of the first courses I bought forever ago was your testing course, which really helped me at work. So yeah, a bunch of different things really.

[11:42] Very good. Yeah. So folks, Madison wants to talk to you. Come to the conference and talk to Madison. Very good. Well, so Madison, thank you so much for giving us some of your time today. I really appreciate just getting to know you a little bit more. I'm even more excited

[11:58] now to meet you than I was before this call. And I was already really excited to meet you. So I'm really looking forward to April and meeting you and all the other awesome speakers at the conference. So thanks again, and I will see you in April. Thank you. Yeah, I'm so excited. Can't wait.

[00:00] Hello, everybody. I am so excited to introduce to you my friend, Mark Texson. How are you doing, Mark? I am feeling so good. Every time I get to talk to you, Kent, I'm not just being silly, I'm being for real. I always feel good. You have such good energy, so I'm really good today.

[00:14] Yeah, the positive energy, it's one of those things. It's kind of like a fire where if I light your torch, your torch also gets lit, but mine isn't diminished, and in fact, the entire room is brighter. So definitely appreciate that positive energy from you, Mark, and that's

[00:32] exactly why I asked you to be the emcee at Epic WebConf, because that's the kind of positive energy I want on stage again and again. So thank you. Let's go. So, yeah, I want people to get to know you a little bit before the conference. I want folks who can't make it to the conference to get to know you a little bit, because they

[00:51] won't be able to talk with you in person. And I want other people to be like, huh, maybe I want to make the trip out there to Utah to meet Mark in person. So Mark, could you give us an intro to yourself? Yeah, so my name is Mark. I have been coding in the software industry for a very, very

[01:07] long time. I've been in the industry for almost 20 years, and I currently work at Google on the Angular team, and yeah, things are good. I'm a father, I'm a musician, and I really, really love to be on stage and meet people and be at events and just have this amazing experience.

[01:25] That is awesome. I didn't realize you were a musician. Do you play or sing or both? Okay, listen, let me tell you a true story. I wish that I could sing. I used to pray that I could sing. I would be like, God, please unlock my vocal cords. Give me something, because I wish that I could sing. But what I actually do is play guitar. I've been playing guitar for a very long time.

[01:43] Wow. Hey, that's awesome. You should bring your guitar. I'm sure people would love to hear it. Oh, you know what, Kent? Don't say that, because I might actually take you up on that idea that I'll bring a guitar, you know? I think that's awesome. Acoustic or classical, what kind of guitar do you have and what do you play?

[02:00] Yeah, so I have two guitars. I have an electric guitar, which is a Fender Strat that I've had for ages, and then I have a Yamaha Acoustic that I've had also for ages. I bought those guitars back in my early or late 20s, maybe. I'm so far way beyond my 20s and 30s at this

[02:18] point. I've been working. I've had a guitar for a long time. Yeah. Hey, that's awesome. Ryan Florence is also going to be there, and he is very much a music maker with a guitar. I found that people who are musically inclined, or there

[02:33] seem to be a lot of musically inclined programmers, which I think there's a relationship there for sure. Yeah, there's something about the way music maps and the structure of music and the structure of code that people can make that transition when they start. Because I just started playing guitar until I was about 20, because I had a dream that I was walking through the hills

[02:52] of Mexico with a guitar across my shoulders. True story. I had a guitar strapped on, and I was wearing some really tight blue jeans and a tank top. I remember walking through the hills of Mexico, and I woke up, and I was like, oh, I want to play guitar. Then I went to Guitar Center and bought my first guitar the next week.

[03:09] Wow. Dude, that sounds like a vision from God. You should play guitar, Mark. That is awesome. Very good. Well, I'm excited to hear you play at the conference if that does happen. I know it's kind of tricky to travel with musical instruments. I've had trouble

[03:27] traveling with my piano. Just kidding. But you're going to be on stage as an emcee, and I want to get an idea of what you're thinking about as you're preparing to be an emcee. I've never been an emcee before. I don't know if you have. What are some of the things going

[03:44] into getting on that stage? Excellent question. I've emceed a few events, and the thing that I'm always thinking about is how can I boost up the other presenters that will be there that day? I want to make sure that they get this really warm welcome. I think about that a lot. Then I think about the audience and the attendees. How do they

[04:04] feel engaged and energized for a day of learning and connecting? When I start to think about that, it's like, okay, how can I serve everybody there? I want to serve the presenters. I want to serve the attendees. I want to make sure the organizers feel like, wow, that was an amazing choice to include Mark in this event. I'm always

[04:22] thinking about those three pillars as I'm preparing to emcee any event. I know that the speakers will definitely appreciate that level of preparation. For me, I've spoken

[04:34] on many stages and had many emcees. It's very evident the amount of preparation that goes into that, whether there was any preparation at all or if people really dug in and did

[04:49] some research. It makes a difference hyping the crowd for the person. It absolutely impacts the quality of talk that the attendees get because the speaker is excited about being on stage. I appreciate that level of commitment.

[05:06] As an organizer who has to make these selections on who's going to be on that stage, it means a lot to me that you would dedicate so much time and attention to that. Thank you. Absolutely. I'm glad to do it.

[05:20] While we're at the conference, I want people who are not there to feel like they have an opportunity to participate in at least the knowledge sharing and stuff. There's only so much they can do by not being in person. That's why we're having this conversation

[05:37] so they can get to know you a little bit. For the folks who are there, I am sure many of them will be excited to talk with you. I know that you'll be excited to talk with other attendees there. I want to know what are the sorts of things that you would like people to come up and talk with you about and what are some of the things you're hoping to talk with other people about?

[05:57] Great. If we're talking about technical things, you can always talk to me about web development in general because I used to teach web development as a part of my career. I've worked as a web developer. Even though I'm on the Angular team now, it's still web development. You can always ask me about that. You can ask me a lot also about AI and then what do you

[06:15] do in terms of your career with AI. I've been doing so much research and growing. I can tell you the honest truth about what I'm doing to prepare myself for a career where AI is a part of that story. Then if you want to talk about parenting, I'm very transparent on Twitter about just

[06:31] how parenting works for me. I can share things that I've gone through with a kid who's really in tune with his emotions. He's a very sensitive kid. I know that that changes the dynamic when you have kids who are a little bit more sensitive. We can talk about that.

[06:46] We can always talk about music, video games, and movies. That's a pretty wide gamut. If you just want to say hi, because I would love to meet you folks out there. If you want to say hi, just come and say hi. I would love to say hi and meet you, take pictures, do whatever you like.

[07:01] Awesome. I appreciate how open and willing you are to chat with people. I'm looking forward to seeing you in the hallway track just with a bunch of people, making everybody feel welcome and happy to be there.

[07:15] Since we do have a little bit more time, I wanted to give you this opportunity to not really pitch, but talk about the Good Morning series that you've been doing on Twitter. I don't know whether you've published it to other social media as well. Why don't you

[07:32] tell us a little bit about that? I want to ask you about it. Sure. I do a web series called Good Morning as a part of the Good Branding. There's Good Morning with Mark, and then there's Good Question with Mark. These are two areas where I just like to spend time sharing my life experience and sharing lots of encouragement.

[07:49] Good Morning with Mark is somewhere between 60 seconds and two-minute motivational videos. It's just going to tell a story and help you feel better about yourself. I really do want people to feel better because I think we're too hard on ourselves. Then Good Question is where people write in and ask me questions about their career, about

[08:05] life, and then I try to answer with whatever I can. If I can be helpful, I try to be helpful. I love that. Are you looking for questions right now? Where do people submit questions? Excellent. I'm on all social media. You can find me on YouTube at Mark Texan, Instagram

[08:21] at Mark Texan, TikTok, threads everywhere on Mark Texan. If you can find me wherever, even on Twitter, find me there. If you just reply and ask a question, I am so happy to help. Please write questions in because then it makes it really great for me to have some ways to share more information and thoughts with you friends.

[08:39] That's fabulous. I definitely recommend a follow of Mark Texan wherever you're on social media because that positivity from Good Morning is just a really, really great way to start the day, the week, and everything. Thank you, Mark, for everything that you do in the community.

[08:57] Thank you so much for coming out to Utah. I'm super excited to have you there and to see you there again. Other folks don't know this, but Mark and I met, I think it was the first time in ng-conf last year. And just super, super awesome to see you in person.

[09:15] So I'm looking forward to seeing you again coming up in April. So thanks so much for coming out. And it's great chatting with you today, Mark. Yeah, I appreciate that. Thanks for having me. And I'm looking forward to seeing you folks in person at Epic Conf. Get your tickets. Come to Epic Conf because it's going to be fantastic. Awesome. Thank you so much, Mark. See everybody there.

[00:00] Hey everybody, I am so excited to be joined by my friend the chantastic Michael Chan. How are you doing? Hey, I'm doing really good. How are you? Can't doing great So for those of you who well for everybody right now You should go look up a post that I put on X on February 5th at 1027 a.m. Mountain Time

[00:18] Because it was just a moments before we started recording on here and it's it's just a good You know a time capsule of what happened Right before this this recording, but anyway, that's not over here about a little behind the scenes a little behind the scene. Yeah

[00:37] So what we're here about is I am super excited to have Michael coming to the Salt Lake City area, we're going to be in Park City for Anyway, epic webconf and I want folks to get to know Michael before that event So Michael, could you introduce yourself to us a bit?

[00:57] Yes, so my name is Michael or Chan or chantastic whatever whatever floats your boat whatever makes you happy and Man, I am so excited to hang out with you Kent and the incredible lineup of people that that you're bringing to Park City It's gonna be amazing Yeah a little bit about me

[01:16] I am just you know, I'm I feel like I'm just kind of a classic nerd like someone egghead was writing a bio for me Taylor's written a bio and said like just web enthusiast and that was it and I was like, you know what? I think that's my favorite bio that I've ever that I've ever had just I have

[01:34] loved the web since like the moment my dad got me a dial-up subscription to the Internet and Just that that that sound just kind of like brings back so much joy and happiness to me the idea that you can Exist

[01:49] Digitally and kind of capture your essence like for forever through these like little things called like websites like it's kind of the craziest thing and like with AI the fact that we contribute to all of that is like humanity it's Like I don't know. There's a lot of like cool fun stuff to about the web And so yeah

[02:09] I'm just excited that you're building a conference that celebrates all of those aspects of the web and what makes it fun and why we love it and like what It means for humanity like over the long term like it's all very fun So I think that's probably like all you really need to know about me It's like that. I just I think this stuff is fun and I am excited to be around people who love it as much

[02:29] I love that. Yeah, the web is epic and it is it's awesome. It's freeing Yeah, there's a lot of stuff in the news about Apple being like locked down and or or different app stores Just locking down what? Developers can do on those platforms and and I appreciate that. That's a nuanced conversation and all of that stuff

[02:50] Yeah, but like the thing that is so cool about the web is that you know from the very beginning you could just Do whatever you want to on there. And and yeah, yeah Good or bad, right? Yeah. Yeah There's both sides to that for sure. But like you can you can put up what you want. No, nobody needs to approve it

[03:10] It's just it's awesome, I love yeah, there is like the first thing that I ever Really built on the web that wasn't like, I don't know my myspace profile or something like that was a Was a registry not not a registry a

[03:28] RSVP site for my own wedding and I just remember thinking it was the cool like I just had the most fun It was PHP HTML CSS like just the you know, the basics, you know back then on like a simple, you know Server somewhere that I was paying a couple bucks a month for and I just thought it was so fun I was I have this vivid

[03:48] Memory of being in Singapore on a business trip with my dad and I'm just FTPing updates to this to this application pre-git free everything like for me at least and I'm gonna call with my now wife Nellie and just kind of like how does this look like is this right?

[04:06] like are these the right details and like being able to update update that in real time and like Close that gap That distance gap between us online for a second. Like it's just I don't know I just really like fell in love with it Like all of those things are just so fun the way that it brings people literally brings people closer together

[04:25] Is awesome dude you falling in love with the web while you fall in love with your wife, it's amazing. I know it's great Yeah, the two loves of my life at that time. That's all well so Michael we're gonna have you at the conference speaking and I think I want people to

[04:42] Get super excited about your your topic and and like just prep themselves a little bit So, can you tell us a little bit what you're thinking about for your talk? Yeah, for sure, so I have my entire career worked in like design systems before they were kind of like capital

[04:59] DS design systems, um, you know working in that gap between developers and designers Even when that was just like working with like, you know Photoshop Cutups, you know with this kind of like snaming strategy so they could easily go into these like web templates and whatnot

[05:16] Um, and so I've been working with like component libraries design systems for a really long time and I am excited to help people understand how to capture That workflow of building a design system or a component library in real time So more of like an emerging design system or emerging component library

[05:39] How to start capturing those details to improve their development experience and I think the enemy in all of this is that we work so hard to build that component one time and We often lose all of the valuable context for the decisions that we made along the way we commit that component

[05:58] It works great. But then you come back to it and you're like, oh crap I I know that I remember we wanted to we wanted to make this change but then there was also this reason that we didn't or Reason that it was hard and we decided not to do that at that time Or there was a use case that we're really trying to support

[06:17] It's all just kind of like if you got the cake now, but you don't have any of the you don't have the recipe anymore hmm, and so What I want to cover is just that idea of like how do you capture that recipe while you're building the cake? So that the next time you can be like, okay if we need to rebuild this cake from scratch or you know

[06:33] we just need to augment it like we have the instruction manual to do it a second time and Kind of holding all of those really important pieces together for us so that's what we're going to cover is basically just how to capture your the important details of your web development process in a way that's like doesn't feel like

[06:51] A lot of extra energy. Yeah. Yeah, we don't want extra chores, but we do right want to have cleaner rooms and Yes, yeah, and so how do you clean up while you're building? Yeah, I think that's the that's the ticket there You mentioned like these emerging

[07:09] Design systems and things that I think that's really the only way that a successful design system really comes about is as it emerges right because As the product is being developed you you think of these different ways that that you can represent

[07:25] the interactions that your website will have and so you really do have to like build the plane while it's flying and Also update the instruction manual I guess and so I look forward to hearing about strategies for that as well Yeah, thanks. Thanks. Yeah, you know, I think it's so hard to

[07:45] We we want things that are finished, right? And I think that that's you know, we talk about component libraries of design systems There's just this urgency to try to get to the end of it where it's done and it just like serves you for forever But these are that's not the nature of living things, right organic things Can there are continually?

[08:04] Emerging and replacing bad cells and like growing, you know until eventually they die, right? but the quickest way to guarantee that something dies is to not continue to develop it and grow it and watch it emerge over time, so

[08:21] Yeah, I think that that is an important thing that we forget sometimes and trying to build the perfect thing Yeah, well that's and it's important to remember that nothing is perfect And and like the the closest you can get to perfection is shipped Yeah, that's that's great

[08:42] I'm really looking forward to chatting with you at the conference and I'm sure a lot of other people are as well and you are Looking forward to talking with people too. I think that's important for people to love it to understand like The the speakers or the people who are on stage are excited to not be on stage and still talk with people and so

[09:01] When we're at the the event and talking with folks What are the sorts of things that you're hoping they come up and talk with you about or what are you hoping to talk? with other people about at the conference Yeah, I think There are two things that I'm really bullish on right now, which is Building one is building your own software

[09:20] I think that you embody this really well this idea of it is always a worthwhile investment to Just build your own software and maybe that means that you decide that an abstraction or a service is still Better right like you're like you love fly dot IO, right?

[09:39] That is an abstraction over like bare hardware that makes sense to you Like you don't have to build your own like deployment service, right? but Knowing how all that stuff works like not being afraid of going that deep if if it's necessary I think building your own software is such a superpower and

[09:57] I think gets to the the heart and the joy of like why we do all this stuff So I think I love talking with people about the silly stuff that they're building just just for themselves. That makes me super happy and then I think you know development workflows and

[10:12] Kind of just-in-time like productivity I guess is something that I'm really excited about I think that Like snap like visual Visual testing is going to be really big like this year and in the coming years I think we're only just starting to see the tools of merge to make that pretty easy

[10:35] You know playwright has just been crushing it It's been absolutely amazing to see Those tools emerge and I think that we're just at the cusp of seeing how those things can actually Improve our web development workflow. Not just the like make sure that it doesn't break in the future workflow

[10:55] And I think that's something I'm really excited I'm excited to hear people's experiences with that as well as kind of like what they'd like to see improved because I think Yeah, well 100% I think that those are really awesome things for folks to to think about and talk with you about at the conference

[11:13] Yeah, the future is going to be very exciting and you know, I I I appreciate talking about the past and stuff, but I like being in a position where I'm not As difficult as the world is right now and there's a lot of uncertainty and everything I still feel really optimistic about the future and yeah, I think that

[11:34] There's a lot to be excited about. So I'm excited. Yeah for for that yeah, I think I'm a nobody people don't listen to a lot about photos and but the World

[11:50] I think that's what I'm excited about you doing this conference that I'm excited for you to put this conference on because I think that you have always embodied that energy that that hopeful optimistic Positive about the web energy and I think that as people come together with that energy in mind Man, there's gonna be a lot of people that are gonna be excited about that

[12:12] So I think that's what I'm excited about. I think that's what I'm excited about With that energy in mind Man, there's gonna be a lot of really cool ideas and fun that's had over over that conference. So I can't wait I'm excited about it. Well, thank you. Yeah, I love that. It makes me think that like If if the world is going to end

[12:35] Like we're concerned that it's going to then I would much rather have it end with me having an epic conference with my epic friends Then to just like sit at home and be like this is awful that the world is ending So like I'm happier and and maybe just maybe

[12:53] By having a positive attitude and working toward something bigger than ourselves. We can actually prevent the world from ending. I don't know You know It's it's it's our only hope right? You're not gonna find it the other way. Yes. Um, have you seen? Uh, what is it called? Oh

[13:15] What is the post Harry Potter Oh the first child no, no, oh, um, oh shoot in the cinematic universe the Ding it. Sorry. Um the the fantastic beasts and where to find. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay. There's a scene It's one of my favorite scenes in ever any movie ever

[13:36] There's this big like rhinoceros thing on the looking thing on the loose and they're trying to capture it and Newt says to the guy that he's using his bait. He's like, you know, I wouldn't worry. He's like, oh really? And he's like, yeah. Well, you know when you worry you only suffer twice. Yeah Yeah. Yeah, actually that's a that's in don't worry be happy actually

[13:58] Yeah, it's it's one of the things that Like, you know, there are a couple of times in that song where he'll say like Just something really quick. Like look at me. I'm happy or he'll say Like I'll give you my number if you worry. Call me. I'll make you happy like don't know like have these phrases and one of them is

[14:18] If you if you were you you'd suffer twice or something like that. I'll have yeah, but yeah So don't be happy and come to epic webcom There it is, that's it. All right. Hey, thanks so much Chan I appreciate you giving us some of your time today and looking forward to seeing you at the conference. I can't wait. Can't wait Thanks for having me Ken. Bye everyone

[00:00] Hello, everybody. I'm super excited to be joined by Michelle, one of my good friends. Michelle, I'd like you to introduce yourself to folks. So, they're super excited to meet you at Epic Web Conf. Hi, everyone. My name is Michelle Bagels. I'm a Program Director for Developer Health at G2I,

[00:18] and I'm super excited to speak at the conference about our work on Developer Health for the last two and a half years. That is awesome. So, I would like to dive in deeper into that. So, and actually, before we dive into specifically what you're talking about and stuff, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself?

[00:38] And you can talk about React Miami and the work that you're doing with that as well. Yes, I'm a software developer in South Florida. I do a lot of volunteering and community work in the tech scene locally down here and with entrepreneurs, startups.

[00:54] And I organize React Miami conference, which is a React conference in Miami, of course, where we bring together people from all over the world to talk about React and have a great time in the Szechuan city.

[01:11] Awesome. Yeah, I am amazed at all of the things that you do for your community in Florida. I just think it's awesome. And it just occurred to me, actually, I had another one of these conversations with Mandy Hartman, who's going to be speaking as well. And she is a second career dev.

[01:29] Her first career was in, like, the art industry, which I think would be fun for you to talk with her about that. So, for the folks listening, Michelle used to be in the art industry also. So, pretty cool, small world, fun stuff to talk with people about. Definitely. We can do it.

[01:49] Awesome. Good, good. So, yeah, let's talk a little bit about what you're doing at G2I and how that relates, of course, to your talk. So, developer health, is that, like, did you first get hired on at G2I to focus on that?

[02:05] Or were you working at G2I and you said, hey, there's a need that we have here, can I kind of make a role for myself there? It was a very serendipitous moment. So, I met the founder of G2I, Gabe Greenberg, at a local tech meetup.

[02:21] He's had a lot of his own, he's had a very extensive health journey himself, where his ability to work and focus on his family and create a healthy life for himself felt very, like, at conflict and at odds with each other for a while.

[02:38] And so, he worked through a lot personally. Someplace else in South Florida, I was struggling with some kind of, like, unhealthy work environments or expectations or workloads as a software developer,

[02:54] ultimately leading to developing a heart condition that there's not really a cure for, you just kind of have to manage it. And it was kind of like a wake-up call having a stress-related injury or health issue, basically.

[03:09] So, you know, Gabe and I, we meet at this happy hour, we're talking about ourselves, sharing our stories, and we actually started working on React Miami together first. And I was after one of our meetings for React Miami that he was like,

[03:24] I really want G2I to become the first, like, developer marketplace platform that prioritizes the health of our developers. And then I was hearing that as a burnt-out developer, and I was like, do it, please, do it!

[03:38] And so, I wasn't even planning to do it, like work on this at all. But then a few months later, I reached out to Gabe and I was like, hey, are you still planning to do this? Like, you know, we had talked about me working on this, and he was just really enthusiastic about it.

[03:57] And for the next few weeks, we shaped the role, created the role, and integrated it into G2I. Wow, that is, that's deep, a deep story. And pretty personal, so thank you for sharing that with us.

[04:12] I think that this is unfortunately something that a lot of developers experience, being overburdened or overstressed. I, myself, just last week, when I announced this conference, I had a little mini panic attack. Like, nobody's going to come, we're not going to get any sponsorships,

[04:29] and this is just going to be awful, and reputation is going to go down the drain, like all of the things, even outside the conference, too, there are other things going on. And just because I did it to myself, because I work for myself, so it wasn't my employer that was putting this pressure on me.

[04:45] But as developers, I think we just get ourselves into these situations sometimes as well, that just overburden us and overtax us. It's cool that G2I is investing in solving that problem. Yeah, definitely. No, I know.

[05:01] Things in our world are very exciting, and they feel limitless and open, and sometimes we can get ahead of ourselves, I think. Yeah, it's one of those things where, like, if we were all building houses, we would be limited by our resources to build the houses, like lumber and all that stuff.

[05:20] But as software developers, we are literally just limited by how much we can physically make ourselves do. Because you can build up the house and destroy it and build it up again, like, every day, if you want to. Yeah, you can build it in 16 different ways on 16 different days. Yes, yes, exactly.

[05:39] So, yeah, it's challenging. So, you tweeted out, or posted out, however we want to say that these days, to the world that you had this talk idea. I saw that you had shared that, and so I reached out to you, because we're good friends.

[05:57] I know that you would commit yourself to making this a really good talk, and it is on a subject that I think is really important. So, can you give us an idea of what you're planning on talking about at the conference? Yeah, so it's going to definitely focus around a lot of the research and work that we've done at G2I for developer health.

[06:16] I think our main, the center of our work in this area is this piece that we wrote called the Developer Health Operating System,

[06:27] which may change names soon, but it's an 80-page guide to a restful work style, something that you're happy, you work at a healthy pace, you have work-life balance,

[06:45] you have healthy boundaries. So, there's a lot that this discusses that we want to have published shortly after the conference talk. And this talk that I'm going to give is going to review a lot of our theories or ideas.

[07:04] One of the major focuses is this idea of engineers as athletes. So, we look at the highest-performing people in the world. Like, you think, what is the limit of human possibility? And a lot of times, athletes come to mind.

[07:21] And then you look at their regimens and you break down what their daily activities are. And yes, they work out really hard. Yes, they're exceptional at what they do when they perform, but they also take a considerable amount of time to rest effectively and to rest well.

[07:40] And they also take a lot of consideration in their diet. So, there's a lot of work that they do to be the best in the world that doesn't have anything to do with their work. So, it's kind of applying the same concept to us, like, are we sleeping well?

[07:59] Those are two different things. Are we making sure we go through all the sleep cycles for a good amount of time? And then, like, are we setting boundaries? So, like, if we're working when we're out of work, then when we go back to work, we're tired. We're actually less productive and effective.

[08:14] And so, are we making time to recover, recuperate? There's just a lot to it. There's also really cool things like time budgeting and coming up with essentialism plans for being productive and helping to be focused. Because I know focus and attention can be a struggle as well.

[08:34] So, these are some tools that we've used ourselves that we found very effective that we're going to share. So, there's a lot, and I can't wait to share it. Wow, yeah. I'm super stoked to see some of the research that you've done and the examples from outside of our industry.

[08:49] I think it is very informative or instructive for people to look outside the industry and relate that to what we're doing. So, I'm really looking forward to some of those examples, too. So, Michelle, this has been awesome to chat with you and get to know you a little bit. I have one last main question here for you.

[09:07] And that is, when we're at the conference, I'm assuming that you would welcome people to come in and talk with you and ask you questions and stuff, right? Yeah. So, what are the types of things that you're excited to talk with people about? What are you hoping that you can do or chat with people about during the conference?

[09:26] You know what I'm really excited about is communication. So, I'm a React developer, and if you're on Twitter at all, then you'll know that there's a lot of discourse around new concepts or things that feel new or confusing or whatever.

[09:44] My hot take is that the problem isn't with a lot of these developments or the iterations that React is making so much as how there's communication gaps. And different words mean different things to different people.

[10:01] And software development is notorious for not naming things well. And so, I have my own personal opinions about this kind of strife that we're in right now. But it's all based around communication, not really around technical concepts.

[10:17] So, if anybody wants to geek out with me on that, I would love to dig into it. Awesome. Yeah. Sweet. I have some thoughts on it as well. So, maybe I'll find a way to chat about it for sure. Yes. Very good. So, Michelle, thank you again so much for giving us some of your time.

[10:34] And thank you so much for coming to the conference and sharing what you know with everybody. And, yeah, looking forward to seeing you in Park City. Yeah, I can't wait. Thanks.

[00:00] Hey Kent. Hey what? You jumped in front of me. That's hilarious. Maybe we should make this my episode because I'm also speaking. Oh yeah. No, no, no. Ryan, I'm excited that you're going to be speaking at EpicWebConf in April.

[00:20] I wanted people to want to come and meet the speakers. I think that for me myself, I have had job opportunities from relationships that I've built at conferences and being in person. I'm glad that we're going to be live streaming the conference and the videos will

[00:38] go up and everything. I think the knowledge should go to everybody, but the experience is something that you can only get in person. So I want you to give people as much FOMO as possible by introducing yourself. Actually, I want to say something about that. Earlier in my career, I remember going to a conference and there were some people that I wanted to talk to

[00:59] who were some of the speakers and online personalities that I knew. They were not very personable and they were hard to approach. I kind of thought, wow, they're kind of jerks. That's why I was going to the conference mostly,

[01:17] was to meet them and talk to them about stuff. Then I was at a conference myself. I think it was EmberConf a long time ago. There were some people that I wanted to talk to and I could never talk to them because I was constantly being followed. A bunch of people were approaching me and trying to talk to me. Then it clicked. I'm like,

[01:41] oh my gosh, I'm one of those people to this person. This person came to the conference and they were like, I want to go talk to Ryan about whatever weird Ember thing I was doing at the time. It clicked. I was like, oh, they want to talk to me. My whole mindset at conferences

[02:01] completely shifted once I realized that people wanted to meet me. I'm going to be meetable. I think you had that shirt that says you can sit with us or something like that. Yeah. Ever since that conference, I've always tried to be really mindful of people might want to talk to me because I do some stuff that they've used or heard of.

[02:25] I'm going to try to be meetable. Come to the conference, come say hi to me. If I don't want to talk, I will be in my room or in my car just sitting there trying to recharge my social batteries. If I'm out in public and I'm around, absolutely approach me and I will try to approach you. Super. Yeah. I love that invitation.

[02:47] You've already kind of turned the conversation the opposite direction starting by being the one to start the conversation. That's actually a question that I ask later on in the interview. It's like, what do you want to talk with people about? I'm going to save that until after we get to know you a little bit. Ryan, what are you into? What are you working on?

[03:09] I'm working on getting this office better because I want to make more videos. I'm sticking sound stuff on all the ceilings. I've got piles of sound things everywhere. I've been having a blast making the latest Remix singles. I did the one on Trellix to show off how

[03:27] Remix can be used to build apps. Except for Figma and Canvas or charts, drag and drop Trello boards are pretty close to the limit of what web apps do in complexity of user experience, right? Yeah, for sure.

[03:48] So anyway, that was that one. I did all the crazy data loading and client-side caching with our new client loaders and stuff in Remix. I made those videos. Yeah, I'm having a blast making demos that teach a pretty advanced user experience. I mean, the apps aren't complete,

[04:07] but what parts of the apps I have implemented are pretty advanced. So I'm just having a blast showing off how well Remix handles that stuff. Mm-hmm. And just to be clear, because there are some people who may not know, but you're the co-founder and co-creator of Remix. I am.

[04:28] So people know, and that's why you're doing all this work on making Remix awesome and teaching people why it's so great. See that empty space right there? Yeah, yeah. That's where my glowing Remix sign is going to go. Oh, nice. Yeah. I joked with Zeno, one of the other conference speakers,

[04:46] that the entire reason I'm doing the conference is so I can get an epic web. Oh, that'd be cool. So yeah, I'm one of the co-creators of Remix and React Router. Michael and I have been partnering on both businesses and open source for about a decade now. Wow. Yeah, that's a long and solid relationship.

[05:09] We've actually been pairing. As you know, we've been trying to do this interview, you and I, and every time I'm like, nope, sorry, I'm writing code with Michael. And we're working on the next pretty major iteration of Remix with some of the features that React has been shipping,

[05:30] like server components and server actions and form actions. A lot of stuff that smells a lot like Remix. But fundamentally, they kind of change what we can do with Remix, both as just developers and as a framework. And so, yeah, we've been having a blast writing some code.

[05:49] It's going to be, I don't want to hype it too much, but when we ship it, I don't think that I'll ever be more proud of code than what we're working on right now. Wow. It's so good. It's like React is so good now. React has so many cool capabilities. We learned a ton with Remix.

[06:12] And then with a 10-year-old relationship of working and building together, it's kind of like magic right now. It's super fun. I don't think I've ever had this much fun in my career. Well, that is awesome to hear. I know that when you were working with Michael on Remix originally,

[06:32] you spent a ton of time pairing. And I think you may have told me this, but I could just tell that you were having a blast. That's the most creative time is when you and Michael are pairing on something new. Yeah, that was a little bit under duress, though. We got to make money. Yeah, so there were some corners cut, and we didn't get on the same page with everything.

[06:59] And yeah, we didn't take enough time to really get the primitives as well as we could have. But also now, two, three years out of building Remix, we know a whole lot better of what we need. Well, and Shopify, too, has reduced a lot of the stress around,

[07:20] like, how are we going to make money and stuff? They've been really good stewards of the project since the acquisition. Yeah, working at Shopify is absolutely fantastic. Normally, when you ship a new tool or framework or something, your user base and their requirements and their scale grow with you, right?

[07:42] So Remix has some rough edges, but the apps are not very big yet that people are building. The apps need more, Remix gets better. And they kind of grow together. You get dropped into Shopify, and it's like, hey, we've got a five million line React app with React Router. How do we get this on Remix?

[08:04] And it's like five million, like literally five million lines of React. Let's get it on Remix. And so it's just sort of like, yeah. Or like, here's 20 merchants that have shipped with Hydrogen One, which had probably the first production deployment of React server components.

[08:24] It's like, okay, now Hydrogen Two is on Remix. Let's bring all these merchants over. And it's like, well, they've all got, they're talking to three CMSs, they're talking to Shopify. They've got like, anyway, like promotions and all this stuff. And how are we going to do I18N? And so it's just sort of like Remix was growing, and then we got it to Shopify.

[08:43] And now it's just like use cases are through the roof. And we've had to try to keep up with them, which has been really good. It's helped me to like know what to focus on better than just like a Twitter poll or something, right? Yeah, that's very cool. I'm excited about the stuff that you and Michael and the rest of the team are working on.

[09:05] And I know that there's lots to be excited about. So what are you planning on talking about at Epic Web Conf? I keep forgetting what month Epic Web Conf is because I'm so busy right now. Well, we're three months and a week and a couple of days out now. So April 11th is the date. That's an eternity. I have no idea. As long as it's in your calendar and blocked out,

[09:28] then I expect that you'll be there. Hang on, let me see. For those listening, Ryan is literally checking his phone right now to make sure that it's blocked out on his calendar. Yep, I got it in there. Oh, phew. So Ryan will be there, confirmed. I will be there. I have no clue what I'm going to talk about. Depends on what we've shipped. I like talking about...

[09:55] You always want to talk about the thing you're trying to ship, right? That's the thing you're most excited about, right? Yeah. And then by the time you're done, you're all like bruised. And you know what trade-offs that you had to make and you wish you didn't have to make those trade-offs. And then you're just like, yeah, I built a pretty cool thing. I can tell you about it, I guess, if you want.

[10:14] But you're not like as hyped anymore, right? So I'm trying to ship to that. And that's, like I said at the beginning of this, like the remix singles, building Trellix and building the movie app. Trying to get back into like hyping the stuff that we shipped a long time ago. And it's actually been a lot of fun. So let's see, things that we've recently shipped is... We're calling it...

[10:37] Well, the feature is SSR faults, but we're calling it spa mode. So a big requirement for embedded apps at Shopify. So when you log into your Shopify admin, because you run a store, you can install a bunch of third-party apps where there has to do with like some sort of like labeling

[10:59] or shipping tracking or whatever, right? And we actually built first-party apps too. So we build a lot of extensions to the Shopify admin the same way that third parties would extend it as well. So we call these embedded apps and they have to run in an iframe.

[11:20] And iframes enable annoying people to track you across the internet and build a profile through all the ad networks that are served over iframes. So Safari and now Chrome have said, you know what, we're not going to let iframes set cookies inside of themselves. Because that's how you get tracked.

[11:41] So you can't set a cookie even on your own. Like you're a remix app, you're sitting inside of an iframe and you're just like talking to your own action and you're trying to set your own cookie. You can't do it. And so it makes it kind of hard to do authentication and stuff inside those iframes. So this was a big... There's a lot of other reasons that we did this,

[12:03] but this is the use case that kind of kicked my butt. Like stick it to the top of our roadmap was we still want to use remix, right? Like you still want to be in that flow with loaders and actions and fetchers and all the pending states and the forms and requests and response.

[12:20] Like I just I still want to like think the server client paradigm because I like it. And it's flexible, right? Like you could write it that way for a single page app and then maybe someday you can move it over to server stuff. So we built spa mode that allows you to run remix without a server,

[12:42] which 90% of remix is already React router and already runs without a server. Like it's already a single page app. It can just server render. So spa mode is really just saying, all right, we're just going to make a single entry HTML file out of your root route. Sort of like an SSG thing.

[13:00] And then from there, it's just like remix normally where we send all the assets to the browser. And so now if you visit the page, you get the static HTML thing that we built at build time when you do remix build. And then from there, it's all getting client bundles. And it's just there's no server rendering. There's no server. It's talking to client loaders.

[13:21] But you're in that remix flow and it's super fun. So yeah, might talk about that. I took, you already know this, but I took your Epic React app that you build, the bookshelf app. And I just barely five minutes before this call converted it completely over to remix spa mode.

[13:43] Going to make some videos about how to do that. So that'll be cool. What else have we shipped? Vite. We got Vite now. That's mostly for us to just like shed responsibility. No, share responsibility. Yeah, that's true. That's true, actually. Because you're contributing back to Vite as well. And I think that's a, you know, totally. It's a good, good thing. Speaking of which, a really dumb little feature,

[14:10] something that I really liked about remix is when you import an asset, like it just gave you an href to like include however you want, like CSS, right? When you import CSS into remix, it doesn't just do some magical who knows what to get CSS on the page. You actually got an href and you put it into a link yourself.

[14:30] And Vite couldn't quite do that the way that remix could, but now it can. And I know that our team helped contribute some of that stuff. So, yeah, you're right. It is two way, but I'm trying to get away from bundlers personally, completely. So I probably will never be very involved in that.

[14:49] So I probably will never be very involved with RV stuff. Yeah. But this is the real world and lots of people want and use bundlers. So I appreciate that that is a priority for the remix team. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for clarifying that. We will always support bundling because there are performance improvements

[15:09] that you only get with bundling. So, yeah. But I think that having a focus on how do we do this without any magical tools actually leads to a simpler API and implementation as well. So I think both goals are important. Yeah.

[15:28] Then the bundlers can just target the real thing instead of like that. That's a big regret I have of remix is that the first thing that happens is a bundler looks at a config and some magic files and then remix goes. You know, there is no real... I mean, your server file is an entry point, but you import your build at the top of that thing, right?

[15:51] And it's like just this something else made this. I don't even know what it is kind of thing. And that stuff always bugs me. So that's actually kind of what I'm saying, where we probably didn't spend enough time on our primitives, even though we had the knowledge and the skills and could have had the foresight if we took a little more time, but we were in a hurry. Yeah.

[16:12] Well, Ryan, it's been awesome to chat with you. I do want to ask you though, specifically, is there anything that you're particularly excited to talk with people about or that you hope people come and talk with you about when we're at the conference? User experience. I just want really good web apps. I'm tired of jank.

[16:37] I wanted to just be snappy and tight and intentional, right? When you're using the web and you're clicking it, you're buying a flight or you're putting some money into an ETF or whatever you're doing, or you're just trying to pay your dang electric bill. You're just like never... I don't know.

[16:54] I don't trust most websites that I have to use. I'm always afraid. Like I've been charged. I think it was my wife was trying to buy something online and we got charged $700, 14 times. Whoa. Yeah. She clicked the button and like a spinner came up and then the button just showed up again.

[17:15] And she was like, what the heck? Why didn't it work? So she clicked it again and she ended up doing this like 14 times or whatever. And then credit card company calls me and I check the thing and it's like, what are we doing? Oh my gosh. Yeah. So it's just, we should... Let's build better UX. Come and tell me what you're building and what part of the UX you don't like

[17:38] and let's think about a better way to do it. Love that. Awesome. Well, Ryan, thanks for giving us some of your time. I'm really looking forward to seeing you with a crowd of people asking you questions about UX and just the way that you do it, being totally there for people to chat with them and make them feel welcome.

[17:59] So I appreciate your presence at the conference. I think you're going to make it a special place and I hope to see other people there. Thanks, man. I'm glad you're throwing it. It's going to be a good time. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you at the conference in April. Bye.

[00:00] Hello, everybody. I'm so excited to be joined by my friend Sandrina. Say hi, Sandrina. Hi, everyone. All right. So, Sandrina, we are just a few months away from Epic Web Conf, and I am so

[00:15] thrilled to have you speaking at the conference in Utah on April 11th. And I wanted to kind of break the ice for people so that they get to know you a little bit ahead of time, so they're excited to come and meet you at the conference. So, could you give us a little introduction to yourself?

[00:33] Sure. So, I'm Sandrina. I'm from Portugal, and I'm a web lover that loves to turn ideas into accessible experiences, but without losing all the fun that the web brings. That's the focus here. And currently, I'm a staff front-end engineer at Remote.com. And yes, it's a company

[00:53] literally called Remote. Very cool. Very good. So, does the company make universal TV remotes or…? Exactly. If you Google remote, we are still competing between the TV remote or the remote logo on the Google results.

[01:12] Yeah. Well, good luck on that front as well. Great. So, can you tell us a little bit about the kind of work that you do on a regular day, like day-to-day at Remote.com as a staff engineer?

[01:28] Okay. So, it's a React ecosystem. So, everything related with React. I'm more focused on stuff related with forms at scale. So, forms from inputs, validations, UI, all up to the API

[01:43] side, you know, validations on the server as well. And how we keep up with building forms at scale. We are not talking about one and one another. We are talking about thousands of forms related with employment and policies, you know. And yeah, that's me basically there.

[02:01] And what else? In between, I also try to help with accessibility at Remote and try to make it compliant. Recently, I've been working on the accessibility statement for Remote.com, which is super good. And yeah, that's it.

[02:16] Interesting. Can you talk a little bit more about that? What is an accessibility statement? Accessibility is a page that you create on your website. It's a statement saying like how compliant or how accessible are you, how your website is. And it's kind of a place

[02:33] where you say, look, these are the parts that we know that it's compliant. These are the things that we do in our website to make sure that it stays accessible. And as important, the same part, it's not just about saying what is accessible. It's also about admitting

[02:51] what's not accessible and saying like, look, we are aware that this part here is not great. We are trying to do our best here. And well, last but not least, also provide an email contact to report accessibility issues.

[03:06] I like that. That's a very accountable sort of approach to accessibility. It holds yourself accountable and it demonstrates that it's a goal and an important one for you at the company. So yeah, I'm always a fan of companies being more transparent. So that's very cool.

[03:24] I like that. So if people want to go a little bit deeper into some of your background and stuff, they can actually check out our interview for Epic Web that feels like just yesterday we talked about that. And yeah, it's pretty, pretty cool stuff that you're working on with

[03:43] the related to forms and things that remote. I would like to ask you, though, about what you're planning on speaking about at Epic Web Conf. To be honest, I'm not sure exactly on what it is, but I have a bunch of ideas. But my

[04:02] goal is I'm going to talk about accessibility in a practical way without borrowing rules. I'm not going to talk about rules. I'm going to talk about experiences, real life examples.

[04:14] And I think my goal for the talk will be to show you that if you care about someone different than you, it's already halfway done to be accessible. Because most of the time is being accessible is just about thinking about different than new, using the Internet and considering

[04:33] that. Being accessible is almost like building a website that it's flexible. If it's flexible, probably it will be also accessible. I have something like that in mind.

[04:44] I like that idea or that approach. I think typically using guilt as a mechanism for getting people to comply is a good way to get them to comply, possibly, but not to enjoy doing

[05:01] it and not to be self-motivated to continue to do it in the future when you're not there to make them feel guilty. And so I think it is better to inspire people to find it within

[05:16] themselves to be motivated and empathetic to other users of their stuff. Yeah, obviously, you can say, oh, you need to follow the law and because of the law, you must do this. But yeah, I don't want to go in that route.

[05:33] Yeah, yeah. You'd rather that people make their websites accessible because they want to and because they care about the people that they're working with. And being accessible really means a lot of things. For example, if you do a pet project just for you, then it's 100% accessible because it's just for you.

[05:53] But what does it mean to be accessible? It really means just to be useful for the people who use your website. And in your pet project, it's just you. So yeah, it's accessible for you. But then when you work on a big company, it's no longer about you. So you also need to care about the other people. Yeah, I actually like that perspective a lot.

[06:14] One thing that I would caution people against though is, I don't remember where I first heard this, but somebody showed some statistics or their analytics and said, see, we don't need to make our

[06:30] web app mobile friendly because we get so few mobile visitors. And it's like, well, maybe you get so few mobile visitors because it's not mobile friendly. So I think that it's important to keep in mind that you're saying, oh, well, our app doesn't

[06:45] really have users who are blind or have an issue with using a keyboard or whatever. All of our users are able users. And I would caution against that attitude also because

[07:00] there are laws and stuff too. But I think even people can be differently abled at different times of their lives as well. So like I'm holding a baby and now I can only use one hand or stuff like that. And it really depends on your website.

[07:20] But for example, at Remote, our product is about helping other companies to hire globally and talent is everywhere. Opportunities should be as well. At the same time, any type of person

[07:35] can be anywhere. So that opens a window to any kind of person. So we try to be accessible to any type of employee or employer. And so, yeah. Yeah. And it's a big part of equal opportunity as well. Especially the people who are

[07:53] disadvantaged already don't need your app making their lives worse. And so, yeah, I think there's a lot to be said about that. So I am really looking forward to your talk. I like the approach that you're planning on taking with it. Now, when we're at the conference, you're going to have your

[08:10] talk and it's going to be, you know, it'll probably be stressful. It's always stressful for me. Like until I get off that stage, I'm like, ah, but you're going to have like plenty of opportunities to talk with other people at the conference. It's a single track conference. So everybody's

[08:24] going to be in the same talks and then we'll have extended breaks to give people opportunities to talk with each other. And so my question to you is, what are the sorts of things that you hope people come and talk with you about? And what are you interested in talking with people about in that

[08:40] hallway track? Within accessibility or outside accessibility? Just anything. Yeah. Like if you're into baking and you want people to talk with you about making bread, that's cool too. Okay. So, okay. Within the epic web world, anything related with animations,

[08:58] I'm a huge fan. Like CSS or JavaScript, I don't care. Animations, 3D stuff, super immersive experiences. Within accessibility, bring me your most difficult cases. That's the thing that I'm like, oh, this is a super interesting one to make it accessible without losing all the interactions

[09:17] and experience and the merciful journey of whatever you are trying to accomplish. And outside the epic web, I don't know, I'm really into calisthenics. I'm into personal finances and I'm into, I don't know, good food. I like to eat.

[09:36] That sounds great. Well, good. So, plenty of things to talk to Sandrina about. Everybody, you should go and find her at the conference and talk. That's why we go in person, right? Otherwise, we all just record on our computer and do a remote conference or something. But there's just

[09:52] something special about being there in person and meeting with people. So, I'm excited to have you there. Yeah. And don't be shy. Probably it's a bunch of introverters trying to hang out and so, yeah, please come say hi. I don't mind. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Sandrina,

[10:12] for giving us some of your time today. I hope that you have a pleasant trip to Utah and that you have a good time while you're here. And I'm looking forward to seeing you in April. Looking super, super forward for it. Thank you so much. It's what, three months almost? Oh,

[10:30] it's almost there. Yeah. Yeah. It's coming right up. Okay. Thanks, everybody. See you, everyone. Take care.

[00:00] Hello, everybody. I am super, super jazzed to be joined by Saran. Say hello, Saran. Hello, everyone. Nice to see you.

[00:09] Nice to see you also. So, I'm super excited for you to be one of the speakers at Epic Web Conf in April in Park City, Utah, April 11th, to be precise. And, yeah, I just thought this would be a really good opportunity for people to get to know you ahead of the conference.

[00:26] So, could you give us an intro to yourself? Sure. So, my name is Saran. I'm probably most known for starting CodeNewbie a million years ago. It's been a decade now. Can you believe it? No way. Not a decade. It was early 2014 that I started CodeNewbie. Holy smokes. Yep. That's amazing.

[00:45] Our first Twitter chat was, I think, in January or February of 2014. I remember that. I don't think I participated, but I saw it for sure. Yeah, yeah. It was very early in my dev career as well. So, my goodness. Oh, is it? Okay. Amazing.

[01:01] Yeah, yeah. So, that started as a Twitter chat. It started as a Twitter chat that happened every Wednesday night at Wednesdays at 9 p.m. Eastern time. And we did that for literally 10 years. I think we did it every week for 10 years.

[01:17] And that grew into a podcast and a conference and then another podcast and meetups and newsletters and a bunch of content and really became a proper media company that got acquired a couple years back. So, that's probably what I'm best known for. And then recently, and what I'm going to be talking about at Epic Web Dev, is my personal creator journey.

[01:36] So, I've always loved design. That's always been just a passion of mine, but I've never taken a proper course. I've read a couple books here and there, but I've never been trained as a designer. And I've always felt like I had a good eye for design. I had a good sense of things, but I didn't have that polish that I see from a proper designer.

[01:55] And I really wanted that polish. And I wanted to figure out what is the right way of doing things? What really is a grid in design terms, not just in front-end terms? And how do you pick a font? And what's a scale? And there were just all these questions I had.

[02:10] And for me, the real power of design came when I had the privilege of doing a redesign for one of my best friends and my husband, actually. So, they co-founded a company called StoryGraph, which is the number one book reads competitor. They have millions of users. And I think it was last year.

[02:28] They asked for some design help, and I said, Well, I'm not a designer, but I love design. Let me see if I can make some improvements. And I didn't redesign the whole thing, but I redesigned the main book page app. And it got such great reviews. And it was so cool to see my little idea used by literally millions of people.

[02:46] And to see people literally comment on the UX and the UI and say how beautiful it was and how much better it was. It was such a cool feeling. And I was like, Man, if I really knew how to design, it would have been even so much better.

[03:00] And so, earlier last year, I decided that I was going to take that mission a little bit more seriously. And I said, I'm going to learn and teach design at the same time. I'm going to level up, and I'm going to share my learnings along the way. And I didn't want to pretend that I'm a design expert.

[03:18] I didn't want to come off as this design educator. So, I called it Not a Designer because I'm literally not a designer. And you are learning from someone who is not a designer. And so, I started this newsletter. And I did it really for two reasons. Number one, I was really excited about learning these new skills.

[03:36] But also, I was really interested in just the world of newsletters. I feel like in the last maybe like five years, newsletters have really taken off. I feel like everyone has one. People are sharing them all over the place. And newsletters to me just make so much sense as a content creator.

[03:54] Because when you're on Twitter, Twitter owns your audience, right? Like I don't know about you, but my Twitter engagement, I have 37,000 followers. My Twitter engagement has been abysmal since it became like X. You know what I mean? And there's like nothing I can do about that, right? LinkedIn, it's not my audience. It's the LinkedIn audience. It's a borrowed audience.

[04:13] And newsletters to me are very exciting because it's an audience that you own. It's a relationship that can travel with you from one platform to another. And so I was really excited about entering the newsletter space, seeing what does it feel like to talk directly to a subscriber? What does it feel like to write and create for them in a regular way?

[04:32] And writing was a new medium for me because I've been a podcaster for, again, over a decade. Right. And I've done speaking, which is live events and on-stage stuff for, again, over a decade. But I actually haven't done a lot of just straight writing. So that's a different medium for me.

[04:47] And so I wanted the experience of being a better designer and being able to help people level up. But also I wanted to just understand the mechanics and the growth channels and the ways to become like a content creator. So that's what I created and I'm a designer. Wow. I love your story.

[05:05] I think it's lovely. And one of my favorite things that I want to call out specifically is your attitude when you got all these wonderful reviews about your UI and your UX. And I think it'd be very easy for myself to look at that and be like, wow, I'm better at this than I thought.

[05:25] And just like pat myself on the back and think like, I'm awesome. Yeah. But I love that you were like, man, I mean, I'm sure you felt good. I did, yeah, yeah. But I could be better. I could be better, yeah. Like could you imagine what it could be if I actually were good at this? I really like that attitude a lot.

[05:44] And we've actually had conversations. If people listen to our Chats with Kent podcast interview a while ago, that goes a lot more in-depth into your story. But if you could briefly talk about like where do you develop that kind of

[06:01] an attitude of self-improvement? I feel like being a developer is such a humbling job. And it really is an act of humility because you get stuck. You feel like an idiot most of the time. Then you feel like a god for like two seconds. And then you're back to being stuck.

[06:21] And I feel like with the ever-changing landscape of technology, with all the new tools that you have to keep up with, I feel like, I don't know about you, but I've never felt like good enough as a developer. I feel like I'm constantly a work in progress because you build a feature. But then for a new feature, you have to figure out how to build that. And you have to play with tools you haven't touched before. And there's a new challenge.

[06:40] So it's a very humbling activity. So I think that unlike, for example, when I do writing, I put a lot of effort into being a good writer. I actually have a team of what I call beta readers. Just like you have beta users, I have beta readers.

[06:57] And it's about eight people who volunteer to read and give feedback to every draft if not a designer before I publish it. And so over the weekend, I give them a Google link, and they leave their feedback, and they give me a rating for the issue. And sometimes I've rewritten the whole thing based on that feedback.

[07:16] So there is still a bit of that work in progress built in. But I feel like once you know how to write, you just keep doing it. You know what I mean? Like you're not constantly learning a new writing trick. You know what I mean? The way that you are constantly learning a new way of doing things.

[07:33] So I think just by virtue of being in tech and being humbled by all the things that are changing around me, it's kind of kept me in a beginner mindset whether I like it or not. So I feel like it's kind of a part of the job, a part of the profession. Yeah, yeah. You know, that makes a lot of sense.

[07:52] And I also really like your approach to writing as well and your newsletter. I'm subscribed, and so I can recommend it. But I love that you have this iterative process for developing that material.

[08:10] You clearly take it very seriously and want to make sure that you're delivering something of high value for people, which is fantastic. It's awesome. Yeah. It used to be called, like the tagline used to be design bites for devs because initially when I was thinking about it, I was like, I'm going to have these cute little tips,

[08:28] and there's going to be these little design tips and advice that people can use. And I feel like every issue is like 2,000 words. Like I can't write it. I really want to explain it. Like I really want there to be like a beginning, middle, and end. And usually we work through a problem together, and we start with like a wireframe, and then I show you all the different iterations.

[08:48] I can't help, but I want it to be thorough. Like I really take it seriously. So there was one time actually that it was so long that someone, one of my subscribers, messaged me and said that it got cut off in her e-mail, and I was like, okay, you've got to take it down a notch. That's too far.

[09:05] So luckily it cut off like around the signature portion, so it was okay. But still, I need to figure out a way to make it more concise. But they're very thorough walkthroughs. They're very well researched. There's a lot of time that goes into it. And, yeah, I really care about the quality. It's really important to me. That's awesome.

[09:22] Now is that some of what you're planning on talking about at Epic Web is the newsletter and how you put that together, or what are you thinking about for your talk for Epic Web? Yeah, I want to talk about this idea of learning in public because I feel like we talk about building public and learning public a lot,

[09:40] and usually it comes off as I'm going to kind of tweet information that I learned, but the Not A Designer newsletter is pretty much me learning in a very public way. But because I'm forced to write in a blog, in, like I said, 2,000 words, what I'm learning,

[09:57] you really get to see in deep detail what I am learning and how I'm learning it, and it kind of holds me accountable, too. It helps me. It's a really great way for me to look at the end of the week and go, this is where all my research went, right?

[10:14] All the videos I watched and book chapters I read and articles I looked at, this is a memorial almost of all the work that put into understanding this. And now because I'm sharing it and sending it out to thousands of people a week, it's a public way of learning it.

[10:32] So I feel like that newsletter content style can be a very effective way of learning in public as well in a way that has a lot more depth than I think just tweeting things does. And so I really want to talk about the journey of simultaneously learning

[10:50] and teaching at the same time and what that looks like and hopefully sharing some design insights as well. Yeah, super. You know, that I can 100% back up as a lot of what you're describing has been my experience as well.

[11:04] And honestly, people will sometimes ask me about why I teach and stuff like that. And I tell them it's actually selfish. It's how I solidify my own understanding of the stuff that I'm learning. And so, yeah, I'm super excited to hear your talk.

[11:21] And just like a point on just nodding the whole time. So true, so true. So I definitely recommend people go to your talk or watch it online. It's going to be awesome. Or I should say epic. Epic, it will be epic. There you go, there you go. Very cool.

[11:41] So Saran, last thing, when we're at the conference and people are going to want to meet you and talk with you, what are some things that you're excited to talk with people about? Oh, that's a great question. I am really excited to – okay, so this is actually a really great question

[11:58] because I think I recently discovered my passion in life, and I have decided to just lean into it and just own it. So when we think about passion, at least for me, I always thought it had to be like a hobby, like I'm really passionate about sewing or cooking or some type of activity,

[12:15] or it had to be like a mission, like a really deep mission, like I'm passionate about helping the unhoused or I'm passionate about feeding hungry kids or something like that. And what I realized is that my passion is helping people make money. Like that's really what I'm excited about.

[12:34] I just want you to make all the money you possibly can. And so I recently, with my startup, Disco, we launched a community called Big Cash Money, and it's all about people with multiple income streams, and it's this really, really incredible Discord community of people who are doing –

[12:51] just like I am doing speaking, doing consulting, writing a book, doing workshops, and it's all about how to optimize for their personal revenue and how to take care of their families better, reach their personal finance goals. And that's right now what I'm just thinking about all day and all night, and that's what I'm really excited about.

[13:09] So if you want to talk about money and how to make more money, come talk to me. I would love to talk to you about that. Epic. Yeah. Let's go get that bag. Let's go. Fantastic. And do amazing things in the world while you're at it, right? You're doing awesome stuff. So thank you, Saron. I'm super excited to have you at the conference,

[13:29] and yeah, we'll see everybody there. See you at Epic.

[00:00] Hey Scott, it's so nice to see you. I'm so happy that you're going to be speaking at Epic Webconf And I wanted the audience to get to know you a little bit before that happens So could you introduce yourself to us a little bit? My name is Scott Hanselman, and I live in Portland, Oregon For the last 15 years. I've worked at Microsoft for the last 32 years though

[00:21] I've been working in tech and you know on the web I was also a professor at OIT Oregon Institute of Technology Which is a state school here in Oregon as well as Portland Community College where I graduated from many many years ago Awesome, so you kind of stayed in that area of the world you like the Northwest 100% I started here. I'll die here. It's got a good airport

[00:42] So I think you're on the chess piece of Portland, and I'll just bounce around but yeah, this is where we are That's that's fantastic. So 32 years in web. That's as long as just about anybody could say They well, I mean because when I count web I mean, I guess I mean Internet because it's like, you know, I mean, I remember installing mosaic the first time

[01:01] I remember when Windows didn't come with a TCP IP stack. So you had to add trumpet windsock I ran a bulletin board I want to say 35 years ago if folks Remember that and if they don't I would encourage them to go and watch BBS the documentary So I was running an OS 2 machine an IBM OS 2 on a 486 with 8 megs of RAM

[01:22] Running Wildcat BBS, which was a bulletin board system and people would dial into my house I lived in my parents garage and we pulled extra copper wire to the back of the house So that we had a two-line bulletin board system running multitasking and OS 2 and people would leave email But email didn't really exist yet. So it was called Fido net

[01:42] So if you can't in a Utah wanted to email me You could have a long-distance phone call because phone calls used to cost money But in fact you would do Fido net would it would I would you'd call your bulletin board you leave a note it would be sitting in a queue and then you'd make a local phone call to somewhere nearby but heading west and

[02:03] Leave it in their queue and then we would bounce our way local phone call one at a time all the way Over to Portland at night and then you'd get the email like the next day What oh my goodness. I've never heard of anything like that. Yeah, I don't that is what that's called Fascinating well, so How how has this?

[02:24] World not just a web I suppose but software kept your attention for so long. I I like the my dad was a woodworker Is still a woodworker and I like the sense of just inventing stuff spawning it out of the ether hmm, which is why I'm so fascinated with things like 3d printing the idea that you can have an idea and then just

[02:46] Spawn it like Minecraft you have an idea a domain gets bought a team gets formed napkins are drawn on the backs of And then the next thing, you know, you're having a conference in in Park City, Utah, which is kind of what you're doing, right? It's that power of creation

[03:03] But also the visceral physical sense of it whether it be software, which is a little squishier or like right now I'm working on this this Apple computer. This is an Apple one built from chips So I'm trying to get this guy to boot up and when I hook this up I think it'll be cool to try to make a bridge between the past. This is

[03:24] 1976 What if I could get chat GPT on this Apple one computer and have chat GPT? Answering questions here at the top. That's that's my woodworking That is fantastic. That's very very interesting. Very fun

[03:42] Yeah, so like bringing some of your your history into the future which is you're at Microsoft right now, right so a Huge part an emphasis for Microsoft is artificial intelligence

[03:57] Yeah, so bringing that that technology up to what you're doing at Microsoft. I think is very interesting Yeah, I I am I don't want AI to go the kind of the way that you want it to go The way of crypto where it gets used for evil and it becomes thing that the grifters are using

[04:16] For me ice when I see like generative AI abused where you're you know inventing new art I'd rather pay the artist for that kind of stuff. I feel like it should be done to reduce toil and reduce pain

[04:32] When I think about being human, I think about the cool stuff we make I don't want to outsource that to to the bot You know, but when I think about a bubble sort that's not the creative part of the job I want to do So if the AI can do the bubble sort cool But I don't want to just say make me a website for a conference and then have the whole thing just spawn

[04:52] You see what I'm saying? Yeah, so what's the boring part? It's the difference for me and the analogy that I use is like a Marvel Universe thing Ultron is like a robot but he's empty and evil and then Iron Man looks like Ultron because the bodies are the same But there's a person in there and he's just made better

[05:08] So I want iron men and women not Ultron's and that's what AI, you know, hopefully should do so I'm trying to really push You know internally and externally Ethical AI responsible AI transparent AI that makes people's lives better And if it doesn't if it replaces humans, then we're doing it wrong hmm, yeah, and I

[05:28] I am definitely I don't think that I'm alone in this but I am a little concerned about what that that future looks like that We could definitely be headed to that Ultron future. It is kind of interesting how the web 3 and crypto

[05:43] Space kind of got really big and then suddenly kind of many of them shifted over to AI but I do think that this is Nothing like a fad or a trend or anything. This is very much something That is here to stay

[05:59] And so that's why I am really excited to have you speaking at the conference about this and what web developers can do To upscale themselves so that they can use AI Efficiently and and like make it a part of what they do Yeah day-to-day rather than be like concerned. It's going to take their jobs

[06:18] one of the analogies that I'm working on that I'm not sure if it's a good one and maybe I'll test it on on you is that what What business is it of I as an old person on the internet to tell people that they should drive stick shift in a world? Where uber exists?

[06:34] Right, like just call an uber and then you you get your butt gets transported by someone else, right? Want food a taco drone drops the food in you. Why do I even know need to know how to make food? I think there's a balance. I should be able to have a I have garden. I've got a square foot gardens

[06:52] Actually a blog post called square foot gardening for programmers Where I talk about how to like lay it out, right? So like I don't need a garden because I have the global supply chain, but it's useful to know how to do that I don't need to know how to drive stick shift I have an automatic or a self-driving car or an uber

[07:09] But when those self-driving cars break down when they need their tires change there's value in knowing how to do that So, how do we as elders in the web? Enable people to be more productive to have more fun to do more stuff that doesn't involve toil Without kind of standing in their way and saying well you need to know Young him before you start in the web build one of these Yeah, I don't want to do that, right?

[07:32] But I do think there's a value in taking the layer that you operate at Whatever it is could be react. It could be f12 tools and then go one layer below Just one layer below like I love that you take ubers Change a tire once Right. I love that you use react. I love that you use Emmett

[07:51] write HTML and notepad once just to just to feel what that feels like and remember our Past so I want to find a balance where AI enables me to do more of that And explore the full stack and understand the full stack and it'll be my friendly co-pilot my friendly helper my patient pair programming buddy

[08:13] But I don't want to be replaced by an AI Yeah, yeah, I love that. I call that leveling up by going down the abstraction layer so like you Everybody can start wherever they want to start I think that's totally fine and and the quicker you get to to shipping something you're excited about the better But when you're ready to say, okay

[08:33] No, I'm ready to actually really be good at this stuff Then you go down a layer to understand how everything is working down sharpen the saw sharpen the saw. Yeah Well Scott, this has just been such a pleasure a pleasure to get to know you and chat with you a little bit I'm super excited to see you in Park City in April is the one last thing I want to ask you about is

[08:54] when When we're all at the conference There are going to be a lot of people there who want to visit with you What are some of the things that you hope people come and talk with you about? um, I Would like to know if people are feeling Empowered and how they are staying with that feeling

[09:15] Someone I'll give you a little random anecdote and you tell me if this works but Someone at work asked me how I was and I was a little blue that day and rather than when your co-worker says hey How are you? You go? I'm fine. How are you? How was your weekend? We went hiking I said the darkness persists, but so do I and It made them kind of go. I just asked you how you were

[09:36] But at the same time though, I think we all get a little blue about these things We all wonder about the future, but we've got to stay positive So I would love to hear positive stories from the attendees about the positive things that they're doing in their community what they're building for their family for their friends for their neighbors and How they are keeping the darkness at bay. Oh

[09:57] That is great. I love that. That's fantastic And you know, I think that there are a lot of dark things happening in the world today And finding a way to persist through those and try to bring a little bit of light into the world I think is a good thing

[10:14] When we talk about this, I just have to think of Mark Texan Who is going to be one of our emcees and he is just such an enormously positive influence in the community And I'm super excited to put him on stage to bring some of that positive energy And I think that you're going to do the same so Scott. Thank you so much for

[10:35] Jumping on board with us and thanks for giving us some of your time today so we can get to know you All right. I'll see you soon. Okay. Bye everybody

[00:00] Hello, everybody. I'm so excited to be joined by my friend Simon. How are you doing, Simon?

I'm doing great.

How are you doing?

I'm awesome. And I am really excited to have you come to Utah in April for Epic Web Conf. So I want everybody to get to know you,

[00:18] just to hype up the event and look forward to meeting you.

So can you give us an introduction to yourself?

All right, so I'm Simon. I used to be a school teacher and passionate about teaching, then I pivoted into web development. I thought I was starting from the ground up,

[00:35] but pretty quickly realized that I can teach web developers just like I teach students. And long story short, I ended up going back to teaching as a DevRel advocate content creator. It led me to work for Tailwind Labs as the main video person making,

[00:53] which let me achieve one of my dreams, which is teach the thing I like the most in CSS, Tailwind CSS, and teach it to a really large audience. And I'm really excited to be, like you said, coming to Utah and be able to talk about my passion about Tailwind CSS, which might be different

[01:12] than some other people, the angle they attack it from. Yeah, one of the things that I really appreciate about what you teach with Tailwind, which by the way, anybody who has been using Tailwind in the last couple of years has definitely seen one of your videos. So thank you for all of those. But what I really like about your approach

[01:33] for teaching CSS is that, first of all, you're not just teaching Tailwind, you're teaching CSS in the process. But you do a really good job of explaining why we're doing things a certain way. A lot of times it's easy to say, okay, and now we're gonna do display block, and we're gonna do gap or whatever.

[01:52] But it's not just magical stuff that you're doing, you're first gonna explain, why are we doing display block instead of display inline or flex or whatever? And you actually show, this is what would happen if we did it this way that you might think we should do it that way, but this is why we're not gonna do it that way,

[02:12] and now let's do it this other way. I guess that's maybe a natural thing that comes to you from your experience in education? It's probably some traits from my teaching background and just my own philosophy about how I learn things. I like to understand little concepts and why certain things work a certain way.

[02:31] So I try to teach it the way I would understand it better. And I like that you noticed that, for me, Tailwind is just a tool to use CSS. It's not just, Tailwind is not a different thing. It's CSS, and then it has a certain subset of properties that you can use with quick access, and so when I teach Tailwind, I really teach CSS,

[02:52] which is the thing that I love. Yeah, I think that Tailwind is, well, it's certainly my favorite way to use CSS. And as opposed to something like Bootstrap where it really abstracted CSS away from you, Tailwind really does a good job of embracing the CSS

[03:10] and exposing that to you in a way that, for me, is more palatable. Like, I don't have to be jumping between these different files and between having to come up with a good name for this class and all of that stuff. So it is, yeah, definitely a breath of fresh air for the last couple of years.

[03:30] So what are you planning on speaking about at Epic Web Comp? Can you give us just, no spoilers or anything, I guess, but your high-level idea of what you're planning on talking about? Yes, so it's a slightly different approach, not necessarily different, but I'm not going to dive into code too much,

[03:49] but I want to talk about how I, myself, perceive Tailwind CSS as a design tool as much as a developer tool. And through my career working with designers and myself, I sort of sit in this straddle between design and front end. You know, there's people completely

[04:09] at the back of the backend and then front of the backend, and I'm very close to the UI and design and dev. And I think Tailwind has that magical capabilities of bringing designers and developers to work in the same mental model, which is really incredible. And yeah, I want to demonstrate why that's the case,

[04:26] what makes Tailwind unique in that aspect compared to other CSS methodologies, and show a few examples of designers I've worked with.

[00:00] Hello everybody I'm really excited to be joined by my friend Tyler Benfield. How are you doing Tyler? I'm good everyone. All right so Tyler and I did we met originally like years ago but we had a really awesome conversation last year at

[00:17] RemixConf and from there I was like man I just enjoy talking with Tyler about database stuff and and then Tyler you helped a lot with the the the data modeling workshop that I have as part of Epic Web yeah huge help there and so

[00:35] yeah I'm excited to have you at Epic Web Conf in April. What I want to do is just give everybody an opportunity to get to know you a little bit so could you introduce yourself to us? Yeah hey everyone I'm Tyler Benfield. I'm currently a

[00:53] staff software engineer at Prisma. I love databases. I've liked databases for many years and I really get into database performance which is how Kent and I got on a really good conversation there and I was fortunate to be able to to help out with some of the Epic Web content and now looking forward to

[01:08] speaking about that at Epic Web Conf. Yeah so I want to talk about what you're going to be speaking about but to dive in a little bit more into what you do how did you get into databases? Yeah so for the first five years or so of my

[01:25] career I was working building web apps and in doing that kind of starting straight out of college and getting that practical experience in a small company where you kind of had to wear every hat there was you kind of start to find I guess databases are a common problem especially for performance and you'd

[01:45] learn the tricks to solve those problems and then as time went on I ended up going to a company that specialized in database performance monitoring software and that gave me a really deep dive into how indexes work how statistics work just general like really deep database topics and now I like sharing that and

[02:03] bringing that into Prisma. Yeah sweet I think you're absolutely right like you can't go very far on the web before you touch a database but a lot of developers kind of lean one direction or another I know when I was like before I went

[02:20] full-stack and decided I just like it all I very much leaned in the direction of front-end and stuff so what what kind of leads you in that direction of databases? Yeah that's a good question I originally was more of a front-end

[02:36] developer I spent a lot of time in a react earlier on I think what I liked about databases was some of the the challenge there in that I guess there's a lot of content around how to help with databases but it's not as approachable to front-end developers all the time you kind of specialize one way or another

[02:55] but once you start going more full-stack you start to see more patch solutions on top of database performance problems rather than getting to the root cause and I really like getting into that root cause so maybe that it's a root cause analysis is what brought me into the databases. Yeah yeah you know I

[03:13] definitely can appreciate what you mean about seeing patched solutions to database problems and I think well why do you think that is? Why do people just go ahead and try to smooth over issues that could be much more easily

[03:30] solved by addressing the database? Yeah I think some of that is sticking to what you know. I know JavaScript I know C sharp or you know Java I know these languages and I know how to work with them so doing something like in-memory caching or doing other querying techniques from the language

[03:50] perspective that's that's something I know how to work with as a as an application developer and maybe the database feels a little bit more foreign so hopefully what I hope to do with my talk is break down some of that and show that some of these concepts on the database like adding indexes don't have

[04:08] to be so unknown and they're actually very approachable once you kind of get a handle of them. Yes yeah and database performance isn't all just about like oh add an index and now thank you for the your ten grand check in consulting

[04:23] but like there's a lot more to it that I guess can keep your attention as you get into that stuff too. Yeah it can definitely get much deeper I think in the talk we'll really talk about the indexes specifically because that's that's the first you know sort of line of attack against the performance

[04:40] problems but I'll probably tease a few more things of where you can go next to learn some more. Yeah okay very cool so let's let's go over a couple of the things the thoughts that you have for the talk. We are still like three months

[04:55] out or more for before we get to the conference but what are some of the things you're thinking about covering in your talk? Yeah so I'd really like to set up sort of a baseline knowledge about databases you know it's going to be pretty quick so we can't get too deep but just make sure by starting with the

[05:12] common understanding of what we're going to be talking about. Yeah Epic web is an epic stack is built on SQLite so we'll kind of focus in on that but the topics we'll talk about are going to expand to pretty much any relational database and then even some non-relational databases to a degree. We'll move into a lot of

[05:30] like how to analyze performance problems quickly and I guess symptoms that would lead you towards leaning towards the type of index and then how to create that index both with Prisma and then what Prisma would generate is that the SQL version of that index to create it for you and then we'll kind of wrap up

[05:47] with those like where you can go next to learn some more. I hope it's a very like pragmatic exercise it's not like something you could just read in a blog post but we'll get it some examples going and I really want to share a lot of my experience too. There's a couple of times we'll interject with some stories that I have of like how indexes have helped me and others to improve their

[06:07] software. Yeah yeah that's great. I know that like there are places where you can get the the knowledge and the learning online and in your tutorials and different things like that but the stories are what really capture people

[06:24] in a talk and for me the job of a talk is to inspire me to go and learn more rather than to necessarily teach me much. I certainly I hope to learn a thing or two but mostly the the talk is there to show me what's possible and stories

[06:44] are a really good way to relate to situations and you've got some good ones too so I'm looking forward to that. Yeah I love the big stories that I won't share here because it's spoilers but they're in the the Epic Web

[07:00] interviews so there's some fun ones. Yeah yep yep it's it's wild. So yeah that sounds like a really fascinating topic to get into and especially for an audience that I'm guessing is mostly going to be experienced with front-end

[07:18] stuff. Your experience as a front-end developer I think is going to help a lot in relating to the problems and things that we think about. It's interesting that all the traditionally front-end frameworks are expanding their level of

[07:36] I guess what they cover as far as kind of coming back into the back end and fooling people into being back-end developers. That's what happened to me and I'm you know happy about that and so yeah I think you're going to have a lot

[07:53] of people there at the conference who are traditionally front-end developers but maybe back-end curious and once you touch the back-end now you're like oh I mean I'm closer to the database I may as well just reach in there just a little bit. Yeah I'm excited for that I've seen that trend too and I'm I'm actually really excited for all these frameworks going to like bringing front-end

[08:12] developers more full stack and maybe the opposite is true too I haven't seen that much you know talk about that in the community maybe some back-end developers are becoming front-end now too. Yeah it is exciting. You do see traditionally back-end frameworks getting more into the front-end aspect

[08:30] of things and I the the attitude that I see from a lot of those is I just don't want to write JavaScript and so if my framework can let me do front-end stuff without writing JavaScript and I'm happy with it but you know I to be fair

[08:46] I don't want to write Ruby I don't want to write PHP so like I it's it just so happens that my language of choice actually runs natively in the browser and it also can run natively on the back end too so I'm the lucky one. Yeah same

[09:01] here I've used a lot of languages in TypeScript JavaScript it's definitely the most pragmatic that I've used in my opinion. Yeah yeah well Tyler while we're at the conference we're going to have plenty of time for people to talk we're going to have extended breaks and things and everybody it's a single track thing

[09:20] so everybody is going to be seeing all the same talks what are you hoping that people will come to talk with you about and what are you excited to talk with people about while you're at the conference? Oh well obviously I love talking about databases so come tell me your database problems I would love to

[09:37] hear them also Prisma I love working at Prisma I love engaging with the community there so if you have good or bad to say like come talk to me John will also be there to talk with and outside of I guess coding things I also am really interested in the snowboarding there I don't know if I get a chance to

[09:55] do it this time the weather is looks like it's a maybe yeah but yeah outdoor sports hikings snowboarding I'm into it very cool yeah I definitely am excited for that as well I I am hopeful that we'll have some snow it this week it

[10:14] seems like it's springtime already it's been kind of crazy but that the snow has a tendency to come back around so and like we've got plenty of snow up in the mountains right now but even if we don't end up with snow on the mountains we'll

[10:30] still have like beautiful things and fun things to do around here April is a really good time of year in this area you'll want to have a jacket especially as it gets later in the evening but you'll be comfortable and that's it's a

[10:44] good time of year for that yeah I went to RemixConf the last two years and Utah is just a beautiful place I love it every time I go well I'm excited that we get to expose you to more than just Salt Lake City this year I can go out to Park

[10:59] City really really cool spot but still like super close you know I get off the airplane hop into an uber ride share or something and then like a 40 or 50 minute drive and you're in Park City it's pretty pretty quick and and now you're like it really at the base of the mountains it's just awesome so I'm looking forward to that to have you out there

[11:19] same all right well thank you so much Tyler for joining us and giving us an intro to yourself and I hope to see everybody in April thanks Kent thanks everyone bye bye


[00:00] Hello, everybody. I am joined by my friend, Una. How are you doing, Una? Hi. So good. Very excited for this event coming up. Thank you. I am also really excited. This is going to be a lot of fun. I feel it's been a while. I think the last time we were together was at Infobip in Croatia,

[00:17] like a year and a half ago. So I'm looking forward to seeing you in person again. Yeah, it should be good. That was a good time, too. Yeah. And Park City is a wonderful place to meet up with people, and it's just a beautiful location at the foot of the Rocky Mountains. It's going to be really awesome.

[00:35] You know, I have never been to Utah, and it's been on my list. Oh! I've seen a lot of photos. I've seen your photos, too, when you go skiing. Or snowboarding, sorry. Yes. So that's made me very jealous, and I cannot wait to see the scenery. It's definitely been on my list. Yeah, awesome.

[00:52] In April, it's pretty likely that there will still be snow in the mountains, but it will be really comfortable at the foot of the mountains. You'll want a jacket, probably. But if you're interested in going skiing or snowboarding, then you probably could manage that, and I think there will be a group of folks who do that.

[01:10] So there's also other really fun things that you can do, like hiking and stuff like that, too. Yeah, I think I'm more for the hiking. I'm there for the vines and the views. Yeah, yeah. Well, then you're going to get vibes in Park City. That is a beautiful place.

[01:25] And the hotel that we're staying at and the venue, which are really close to each other, but there's a stop for public transportation that's free, and it'll get you through the city and everything, so you can go. There's a really good shopping vibe there, too, just like fun little shops and stuff.

[01:43] It's going to be great. Anyway, I would like folks to get to know you, Una. Can you give us an intro to yourself? What are you into? Sure. So, hi, I'm Una. I work on the web platform in the UI space, which is usually CSS, HTML, JavaScript,

[02:00] where it relates to user interaction and user interface things. I live on the East Coast. I'm outside D.C. right now. I love crafts. I'm big into crafts. This is my craft room. So I've got my sewing machine set up behind me. I recently got into that. I like to do calligraphy.

[02:18] That's kind of like my thing outside of tech, is I try to get crafty with my hands. And I have a dog. I've recently gotten really into bird watching. There's this really cool app called Merlin, where you can record the sounds of the birds around you,

[02:37] and it'll pick up what birds are actually speaking, kind of like show on the screen what birds are making noises at what time. It's really cool. You can see a bird conversation. Anyway. That is cool. My son is super into birds. For Christmas, we got him binoculars, and he just barely bought himself a bird house

[02:56] that he hung up in a tree and stuff. And he'll run around with a phone or a camera taking pictures of birds and stuff. He's just really into that stuff. That sounds like a nice app. You've got to get this app. It's a free app. I think Cornell University made it. That is very cool. Yeah, I'll have to look into that.

[03:14] And you also made me think, with your craftiness, of Shirley Wu. You know Shirley, right? Yes. I'm so inspired by her. Yeah, absolutely. She's really done a good job of taking the digital data viz stuff that she's doing

[03:33] and applying it to a real world art installations and stuff. Very cool stuff. Yeah. She's been doing physical installations with Arduinos and getting sensor data. That's really cool, I think. Yeah, it's fascinating stuff. Well, yeah. Very good.

[03:48] I really appreciate the work that you do to push the web forward to the web platform and your participation on committees and then also in the education side of things. And yeah, you're going to educate us at Epic Web Conf, actually. Can you tell us a little bit about what you're planning on for your talk?

[04:06] Yeah, so I'm really excited to talk about specifically this area with the folks that are coming to this event. I'll be talking all about modern and new UI capabilities that have landed recently in the platform. And there's so much that has landed that really gives developers a lot of power and control

[04:24] and lets you do things a lot more declaratively. So instead of having to write a bunch of additional scripts or have additional dependencies for things like anchor positioning will be coming down the line, or there's even a lot of ways to improve performance by reducing file size now with some of these new success capabilities.

[04:43] There's a lot of different features that make your life easier as a developer if you leverage the power of the platform and especially some of these modern UI capabilities today. And I think that this is an area that a lot of folks who are in the JavaScript world

[04:59] and heavily in the JavaScript space don't tend to follow because it's not really in their circle. So I love to bring this topic to folks who are more in the JS ecosystem and kind of open their eyes on all of these new UI features.

[05:15] Yeah, you know, I think that for the JavaScript folks, we are so focused on solving problems using JavaScript because the platform originally, when we discovered the problem, the platform didn't solve it. And so we get into this situation where we're just solving that problem.

[05:32] We've found a solution that we like. We're going to stick with it. And then the platform comes around and changes in a way that the problem no longer exists and we don't like check back in and see, oh, like there's actually a better way to do this now. And so I appreciate people like you who kind of say, hey, everybody,

[05:50] like, you know, lift your eyes up from the computer for a second. I want to show you a better way to do this. Kind of like that meme of the caveman, like pulling a cart with square wheels. Like the other one is like, here's a circular wheel. And they're like, no, we're too busy.

[06:05] The web is evolving. And it makes sense, too, because take scroll-driven animations, for example. We didn't previously, three years ago, have the capability to animate based on a scroller, only on a timer in CSS. So you have to use JavaScript to do, you know, observing of the page

[06:22] and of your positioning on the page to create these effects. And that was pretty heavy because you would have to clutter up the main thread and you'd have to have usually dependencies because you didn't want to write all that from scratch. You're just loading a library that you're then utilizing in your code base.

[06:38] But now we have declarative scroll-driven animations in CSS. No additional dependencies. The browser does the work for you. It's off the main thread. It's more performant. And you get all of these benefits. But we wouldn't have gotten there if we didn't have people writing it in JavaScript, making these effects on the platform, creating these libraries.

[06:55] So it's kind of like paving the cow paths, if you will, where we've identified things that developers need, and then they keep rebuilding, like scroll-driven animations, or even like styling dropdowns. Why is that still so hard to do on the platform? And identify those things, like these are the top developer needs that people keep redoing,

[07:14] especially with select. The more we rebuild selects from scratch, the more accessibility errors we can introduce. The more cruft we have to manage, like all the different states we have to manage, opening, closing, focus, all of that. So as a browser team, it's our job to make it easier and to keep the web evolving.

[07:31] So it's great to see people building libraries in Polyfill and seeing what they're doing on the platform so that we could then take that as data and make the web itself better. So, you know, while we're at the conference, there are going to be people who want to come and talk with you, and you're just such a friendly person that, like, absolutely, people don't be nervous. Go talk to Una. She's awesome.

[07:50] What are the sorts of things that you are hoping to talk with other people about? What are the sorts of things you hope people will come and talk to you about? So honestly, I'm really hoping to hear about the things that you wish you could do on the web platform. So complain to me about the things that you're getting stuck with,

[08:09] or things that are too hard, or any ideas that you have, too, for things that could be better on the web. I would love to hear it, because that's how we can actually make the web better, is when I hear from you all that there are these areas that you're stuck with. Like, Kent, I remember last time we got together, you were talking about how you wanted to style form error messages better,

[08:28] where you wished that could be an option. So hearing that kind of feedback is how we actually can help prioritize it, figure out a solution, spec it, and then maybe ship it. So that's super, super helpful, but you don't have to just complain to me. You can also come and talk to me about UI, CSS, HTML, things that you're trying to build.

[08:47] I'm happy to point you in directions or give you feedback for that. So anything is open, free game, again, I would love to chat. And just here we go at it, too. That's awesome. I would add maybe crafty things, as well. If you're a sewer, maybe that could be a fun thing to chat about, too.

[09:06] That would be awesome. I don't talk about that that much at conferences, so let's change the narrative. Yeah. Like, we're people. This is why we go to events in person, right? It's just because, like, otherwise we could just watch the recordings online later or the live stream.

[09:24] But being there in person, it just feels like you can connect better. And what I love about it is when there's somebody that I know online and then I meet them in person the first time, my online interactions with that person just improve a lot because now, like, we have this connection, this real-life connection. Yeah.

[09:43] That's why I really think in-person conferences are so important. I'm super bummed the past few years with COVID. It just really affected the community, and I was pretty sad for a little while. It literally infected the community.

[09:57] But, yes, I'm hoping that we can come back because I do think that is important. And I think there are a lot of people who really want that, too. So I'm excited that you're helping make that dream a reality by coming and excited for people to come and meet you.

[10:16] So thanks, Yuna, for giving us some of your time today, and we'll see you in April. Yeah, I can't wait. Bye, everyone. Bye.

[00:00] Hey, what is up, everybody? I'm excited to be joined by my friend Zeno. Zeno, say, how are you doing? Hey Kent, super excited to be here, man. Super excited about the conference. This is gonna be so fun, so yeah, let's do it. I'm stoked. All right, so Zeno, you are actually

[00:20] the founder of one of the companies that's sponsoring the conference, Resend. And I'd love for folks to, well, first of all, thank you for sponsoring the conference, that's awesome, making this thing possible. Otherwise, I couldn't run the conference. It just would cost too much. So I definitely appreciate that.

[00:38] I'd love for people to get to know you a little bit. Could you give us an intro to yourself? Yeah, I'm originally from Brazil, now living in San Francisco with my wife and my two-year-old daughter. And I've been doing front-end my whole life. Started with ActionScript 3, started with Flash,

[00:58] and I've seen the transformation through HTML5, jQuery, all those things into what we have now. Today, I don't code like full-time. That's not what I do from nine to five, but I can't stop coding. So I keep coding on weekends

[01:18] and during the night is just something that I love. And yeah, currently running Resend, which is a email API for developers. So if you're looking to integrate email into your products, check out Resend, it's pretty cool. And I love open source.

[01:36] I absolutely love open source. Maybe folks have heard about Dracula or Clipboard.js or React email. So I've been doing a lot of open source my whole life, and it's one of the things that, yeah, I also can't stop doing. So I definitely appreciate React email.

[01:56] That's a built-in part of the Epic stack. Resend is also a built-in part of the Epic stack. So for sure, appreciate the work that you're doing in open source and the service that Resend provides. I definitely am very thoughtful about the decisions that I make in the Epic stack.

[02:15] And so evaluated a number of options and Resend checks all the important boxes in the best way of all the services that I evaluated. So thank you for building that and for your continued work on the open source side of things as well.

[02:33] I think that's super. So, and also congrats on your two-year-old daughter. That's a wonderful age. It's a very fun time for the children there. So I appreciate you taking a little bit of time away from the two-year-old to come out to Utah. I'll probably bring them.

[02:54] I was talking to my wife. I think we're gonna go as a group. Oh, now that would be awesome. I definitely recommend it. There are really cool things to do and things to see in Park City. So yes, absolutely. Good call. That'll be a lot of fun then.

[03:10] So, and yeah, I can't argue with the idea of bringing the family along as well just because I hate leaving my kids at home and especially leaving my wife alone with all the kids at this point is just a lot to ask. So that sounds great. That's exciting for you.

[03:30] So at the conference, you're not gonna be talking about recent. It's not like a product pitch, but you are going to be taking some of your experience in building developer first products. And so what are some of the things that you're planning on including in your talk?

[03:48] Yeah, I definitely feel like we've been through multiple generations of developer products. You know, when you look back 16 years ago when Twilio started, it was a very different world than what we have today, right? So I wanna go through that history, but more importantly,

[04:06] I just wanna highlight what's different today. And for me, there are a couple of things, one being, for example, I truly believe we live in a SDK first world and not an API first world. And even though APIs are extremely important

[04:26] and they are the foundation of services like recent and like many others like Stripe, I feel like there's some different abstraction layers that are now being highlighted and exposed. When you think about services like Clerk, right? You do have the REST API, but you also have SDKs for Node.js

[04:46] and then you have another layer of React components that are unstyled or maybe lightly styled and then you can customize. So there's a lot of different things related to that that I'm super excited to dive into. And also from a marketing perspective too, I feel like a lot of things change

[05:06] in the way you approach building a product for developers. I think in the beginning, it was very much about like, if it works, that's all, and it can have this super ugly documentation, maybe not even a website, just to read me and that's enough. I think the bar is very high nowadays.

[05:24] So how do you even go about not only reaching the bar, but raising the bar? That's everything that I'm about. I just don't wanna do whatever people are doing, but I wanna raise the bar where everybody's like, oh, wow, now there's a new standard.

[05:44] Now we gotta be as good as this thing here. So really excited. I think there's a lot that we can dive into. Very cool, yeah. I think when you raise that standard, and you definitely have done that with Resend,

[06:02] it just makes, it's part of your competitive advantage and that's part of the reason why I wanted you to give this talk is because I think a lot of people who are building web applications, especially with the Epic stack,

[06:20] they just want to get a product into people's hands and a lot of people are building products that are SaaS related. And so I thought that your talk would be really useful based on all the experience that you've had in building a SaaS product. Really useful insights for them.

[06:39] So I definitely appreciate that and I'm looking forward to having you speaking on that. While we're at the conference, one of the really important aspects of a conference is the in-person nature of it. Otherwise, we just record a video and upload it to a YouTube playlist

[06:59] and now everybody watches it, which of course we are going to do. All of this will be live streamed and the videos will be put on YouTube later. Subscribe and all that. But the main benefit of a conference in my mind is the connections and the networking. I've received jobs from relationships

[07:21] that I created while at conferences and open source contributions and collaborations, lots of those things for me have happened because of conferences in person. And so while you're at the conference, I'm sure there will be people who want to come and talk with you.

[07:39] What are the sorts of things that you would like people to come and ask you about or what are the things that you want to talk about when you're at the conference? Yeah, it's a fascinating question. And just a parenthesis, before going to that, like you mentioned the importance of going to conferences, right?

[07:59] I remember my first talk was about HTML5 and I didn't know anything about HTML5, but I submitted a talk and I remember they had like this huge text area for you to fill up with your bio. And I was still a student, still like doing like a CS course and everything.

[08:17] And then I just submitted and somehow they accepted. And then I had to start like thinking, oh no, how am I going to give a talk? Now I'm going to be in front of everybody. Now I need to really learn this. So, and I had like, just like you, job offers because of that. Just because I went to one conference,

[08:37] I met one person that led me to a different job. But more than anything, I still have friends that are like extremely close to me today that I met at conferences in 2012, 2013. So just echoing what you said,

[08:54] I feel like there's just so much you can take out of that. But once we're there, once we're in person, after we share about the things we like first, because we don't need to be pitching stuff to each other. We just need to be talking about, hey, here's a human, here's another human.

[09:13] We're the same. Let's chat about things we love. I would love to talk about maybe how Brazil is different than the US or how like tactics for launching open source projects and getting traction. And just building open source projects that last.

[09:35] Maybe that's another one. Like I've been running Dracula for 10 years now. And now Dracula has six million something users only on VS Code. There's a Wikipedia page for Dracula. Like how cool is that? That's amazing, wow. So yeah, I'll be down to chatting about that or about email too.

[09:55] I've been learning a ton about email. So we can definitely go over that too. Cool, yeah, it sounds like you have a wealth of experience. As you mentioned, you've been doing this for a long time. And so just a wealth of experience that people in person will be able to get a lot out of conversations with you.

[10:14] So I'm looking forward to that for the attendees. I'm looking forward to meeting you as well. And I think we're just gonna have an awesome time in Park City. So yeah, I guess that's about it. Zeno, I look forward to seeing you in April. Yeah, it's gonna be great.

[10:32] Super excited to see you and everybody. And please get those tickets. It's important. Let's meet in person. I'm sure it's gonna be a much different experience than just watching on YouTube. I think it's worth it. Yeah, awesome. Thanks, Zeno. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you all later. Bye.


Schedule

Wednesday, 10/04/2024

Room: Prospector Lobby

☄️ Workshop Registration

Welcome Mingle and Registration 🚀

Room: Coalition 2

Advanced React Patterns **OPTIONAL WORKSHOP REQUIRES A SEPARATE TICKET**

Room: Coalition 3

How to Build Epic Commerce Experiences **OPTIONAL WORKSHOP REQUIRES A SEPARATE TICKET**

Room: Prospector Theater

Bonus speaker recordings start

Building shop.app at scale with Remix and AI

The Next Generation of Developer-First Products

The Recipe for Local-First

Thursday, 11/04/2024

Room: Prospector Lobby

☄️ Registration & Breakfast

Room: Prospector Theater

Welcome 👋

What Makes the Web Epic

Less Cruft, More Power: Leverage the Power of the Web Platform

Tech Broke My Heart

Break

Unleashing Designers with Tailwind CSS

Accessible interactions in JavaScript apps

Lightning in a bottle with CSS custom properties

The Recipe for Local-First

Lunch

DevTools.fm Live Recording

Sessions start again

Improve performance and reliability of your API with events and background functions

Surprise!

Seriously SQLite

Mocking WebSockets with MSW

Not A Designer

Snapshot-driven Development: Capture Visual Tests in Flow

Break

AI - “iron man or ultron”

Epic App Performance Starts with the Database

Things You Probably Didn't Know About Remix

High Performance CRUD Apps

Farewell 🫶

Dinner Break

Party 🎉

Speakers

Sponsors

Advanced React Patterns OPTIONAL WORKSHOP REQUIRES A SEPARATE TICKET

How to Build Epic Commerce Experiences OPTIONAL WORKSHOP REQUIRES A SEPARATE TICKET